Hello,
This seems to me like a social problem, rather than a technical one.
Shutting down the tool would be a disadvantage for those people who benefit
from the tool and do good things with it.
What is the general opinion among the Norwegians about this issue? Is there
consent about how to deal with this kind of "articles"? If most people
agree they should be speedy-deleted, this would be a useful deterrence for
those who are not careful enough when using the tool?
Kind regards
Ziko



2017-05-03 13:22 GMT+02:00 John Erling Blad <jeb...@gmail.com>:

> Agree! I also wonder if translators adapt to specific errors if they are
> repeated to often. I wonder if it works like priming the brain to a
> specific pattern.
>
> On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Lodewijk <lodew...@effeietsanders.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Reading this, I get a strong impression the problem may very well be in
> > setting expectations for the users of this translation tool. If they
> expect
> > the automated translation to be rather good, they may get fed up more
> > easily than when they consider it primarily a glorified dictionary.
> >
> > Lodewijk
> >
> > On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 1:06 PM, David Cuenca Tudela <dacu...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Perhaps it would be a good idea to compare the translated text to the
> > text
> > > that the user wants to save.
> > >
> > > If they are more than 95% the same, that means that the user didn't
> take
> > > the effort to correct the text.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Micru
> > >
> > > On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 10:31 AM, Wojciech Pędzich <wpedz...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > It does depend a lot on the engagement level of the human behind the
> > > > keyboard. When I deal with machine-translated text, I simply wonder
> > > whether
> > > > the someone behind the keyboard took efforts to actually read the
> > piece.
> > > >
> > > > Now whether this would work if limited to namespaces outside "main"
> - I
> > > do
> > > > not want to demonise the issue, but if the person submitting the text
> > for
> > > > machine translation does not read it, what will stop them from a
> quick
> > > > ctrl+c / ctrl+v? Just asking.
> > > >
> > > > Wojciech
> > > >
> > > > W dniu 2017-05-03 o 09:33, Yaroslav Blanter pisze:
> > > >
> > > > Creating machine translations only in the draft space (or in the user
> > > space
> > > >> in the projects which do not have draft) could help.
> > > >>
> > > >> Cheers
> > > >> Yaroslav
> > > >>
> > > >> On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 10:16 PM, Pharos <
> pharosofalexand...@gmail.com
> > >
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> I think it all depends on the level of engagement of the human
> > > translator.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> When the tool is used in the right way, it is a fantastic tool.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Maybe we can find better methods to nudge people toward taking
> their
> > > time
> > > >>> and really doing work on their translations.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Thanks,
> > > >>> Pharos
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 4:09 PM, Bodhisattwa Mandal <
> > > >>> bodhisattwa.rg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Content translation with Yandex is also a problem in Bengali
> > Wikipedia.
> > > >>>> Some users have grown a tendency to create machine translated
> > > >>>> meaningless
> > > >>>> articles with this extension to increase edit count and article
> > count.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>> This
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> has increased the workloads of admins to find and delete those
> > > articles.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Yandex is not ready for many languages and it is better to shut
> it.
> > We
> > > >>>> don't need it in Bengali.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Regards
> > > >>>> On May 3, 2017 12:17 AM, "John Erling Blad" <jeb...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Actually this _is_ about turning ContentTranslation off, that is
> > what
> > > >>>>> several users in the community want. They block people using the
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> extension
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> and delete the translated articles. Use of ContentTranslation has
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> become
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> a
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>>   rather contentious case.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Yandex as a general translation engine to be able to read some
> > alien
> > > >>>>> language is quite good, but as an engine to produce written text
> it
> > > is
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> not
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> very good at all. In fact it often creates quite horrible
> > Norwegian,
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> even
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> for closely related languages. One quite common problem is
> > reordering
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> of
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> words into meaningless constructs, an other problem is reordering
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> lexical
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> gender in weird ways. The English preposition "a" is often
> > translated
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> as
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> "en" in a propositional phrase, and then the gender is added to
> the
> > > >>>>> following phrase. That gives a translation of  "Oppland is a
> county
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> in…"
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>   into something like "Oppland er en fylket i…" This should be
> > > "Oppland
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> er
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> et fylke i…".
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> (I just checked and it seems like Yandex messes up a lot less now
> > > than
> > > >>>>> previously, but it is still pretty bad.)
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Apertium works because the language is closely related, Yandex
> does
> > > not
> > > >>>>> work because it is used between very different languages. People
> > try
> > > to
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> use
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> Yandex and gets disappointed, and falsely conclude that all
> > language
> > > >>>>> translations are equally weird. They are not, but Yandex
> > translations
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> are
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> weird.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> The numerical threshold does not work. The reason is simple, the
> > > number
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> of
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> fixes depends on language constructs that fails, and that is
> simply
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> not a
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> constant for small text fragments. Perhaps if we could flag
> specific
> > > >>>>> language constructs that is known to give a high percentage of
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> failures,
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> and if the translator must check those sentences. One such
> language
> > > >>>>> construct is disappearances between the preposition and the
> gender
> > of
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> the
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> following term in a prepositional phrase. If they are not similar,
> > > then
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> the
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> sentence must be checked. It is not always wrong to write "en
> > jenta"
> > > in
> > > >>>>> Norwegian, but it is likely to be wrong.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> A language model could be a statistical model for the language
> > > itself,
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> not
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> for the translation into that language. We don't want a perfect
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> language
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> model, but a sufficient language model to mark weird constructs. A
> > > very
> > > >>>>> simple solution could simply be to mark tri-grams that does not
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> already
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> exist in the text base for the destination as possible errors. It
> is
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> not
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> necessary to do a live check, but  at least do it before the page
> > can
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> be
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> saved.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Note the difference in what Yandex do and what we want to
> achieve;
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> Yandex
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> translates a text between two different languages, without any
> clear
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> reason
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> why. It is not to important if there are weird constructs in the
> > > text,
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> as
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> long as it is usable in "some" context. We translate a text for
> the
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> purpose
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> of republishing it. The text should be usable and easily readable
> > in
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>> that
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> language.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 7:07 PM, Amir E. Aharoni <
> > > >>>>> amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> 2017-05-02 18:20 GMT+03:00 John Erling Blad <jeb...@gmail.com>:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Brute force solution; turn the ContentTranslation off. Really
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> stupid
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> solution.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> ... Then I guess you don't mind that I'm changing the thread
> name
> > :)
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> The next solution; turn the Yandex engine off. That would solve
> a
> > > >>>>>>> part of the problem. Kind of lousy solution though.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> What about adding a language model that warns when the language
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> constructs
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> gets to weird? It is like a "test" for the translation. The CT
> is
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> used
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> for
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> creating a translation, but the language model is used for
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> verifying
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> if
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> the
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> translation is good enough. If it does not validate against the
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> language
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> model it should simply not be published to the main name space.
> It
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> will
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> still be possible to create a draft, but then the user is
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> completely
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> aware
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> that the translation isn't good enough.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> Such a language model should be available as a test for any
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> article,
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> as
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> it
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> can be used as a quality measure for the article. It is really
> a
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> quantity
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> measure for the well-spokenness of the article, but that isn't
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> quite
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> so
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> intuitive.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> So, I'll allow myself to guess that you are talking about one
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> particular
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> language, probably Norwegian.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Several technical facts:
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> 1. In the past there were several cases in which translators to
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> different
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> languages who reported common translation mistakes to me. I
> passed
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> them
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> on
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> to Yandex developers, with whom I communicate quite regularly.
> > They
> > > >>>>>> acknowledged receiving all of them. I am aware of at least one
> > such
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> common
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> mistake that was fixed; possibly there were more. If you can
> give
> > me
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> a
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> list
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> of such mistakes for Norwegian, I'll be very happy to pass them
> > on.
> > > I
> > > >>>>>> absolutely cannot promise that they will be fixed upstream, but
> > it's
> > > >>>>>> possible.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> 2. In Norwegian, Apertium is used for translating between the
> two
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> varieties
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> of Norwegian itself (Bokmål and Nynorsk), and from other
> > > Scandinavian
> > > >>>>>> languages. That's probably why it works so well—they are similar
> > in
> > > >>>>>> grammar, vocabulary, and narrative style (I'll pass it on to
> > > Apertium
> > > >>>>>> developers—I'm sure they'll be happy to hear it). Unfortunately,
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> machine
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> translation from English is not available in Apertium. Apertium
> > works
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> best
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> with very similar languages, and English has two
> characteristics,
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> which
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> are
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> unfortunate when combined: it is both the most popular source
> for
> > > >>>>>> translation into almost all other languages (including
> Norwegian),
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> and
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> it
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> is not _very_ similar to any other languages (except maybe
> Scots).
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> Machine
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> translation from English into Norwegian is only possible with
> > Yandex
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> at
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> the
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> moment. More engines may be added in the future, but at the
> moment
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> that's
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> all we have. That's why disabling Yandex completely would indeed
> > be a
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> lousy
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> solution: A lot of people say that without machine translation
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> integration
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Content Translation is useless. Not all users think like that,
> but
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> many
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> do.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> 3. We can define a numerical threshold of acceptable percentage
> of
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> machine
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> translation post-editing. Currently it's 75%. It's a tad
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> embarrassing,
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> but
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> it's hard-coded at the moment, but it can be very easily be made
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> into a
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> variable per language. If the translator tries to publish a page
> in
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> which
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> less than that is modified, a warning will be shown.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> 4. I'm not sure what do you mean by "language model". If it's
> any
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> kind
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> of a
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> linguistic engine, then it's definitely not within the resources
> > > that
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> the
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> Language team itself can currently dedicate. However, if somebody
> > who
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> knows
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Norwegian and some programming will write a script that analyzes
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> common
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> bad
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> constructs in a Wikipedia dump, this will be very useful. This
> > would
> > > >>>>>> basically be an upgraded version of suggestion #1 above. (In my
> > > spare
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> time
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> as a volunteer I'm doing something comparable for Hebrew,
> although
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>> not
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> for
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> translation, but for improving how MediaWiki link trails work.)
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