I agree with Strainu's comments above.

I described some issues with adopting policies and ill-fitting policies
under the Community Governance capacity page, in the Community Capacity
Development program:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Capacity_Development/Community_governance


    A.

On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 5:09 PM Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >
> > ​
> > Verifiability can be very different. For example oral sources
>
>
> ​very agree, the intangible sources are a really challenge to way you look
> at verifiability. Not only are wanting to gather the information and make
> it possible for others to also access it the very nature of the sources is
> dynamic and fragile bringing them into a tangible format risks the
> continuation of knowledge gained, a kin to exposing an ancient paper source
> to intense UV light.
>
> There is a lot of fantastic work going on around the world on how to
> "Europeanise" knowledge without destroying it  .  All of this gets more
> complex when you learn that knowledge isnt just a few words its part of a
> multidimensional connection to and in time, place, and circumstances  by
> bringing it into a one dimensional world like Wikipedia is in it self
> changing the very nature of the knowledge.   If our goal is to collect the
> sum of all knowledge then we need to be free as communities to address the
> uniqueness of the knowledge we seek within the bounds of culture(language)
> from which it originates
>
> > ​
>
>
> On 9 August 2017 at 04:12, Jean-Philippe Béland <jpbel...@wikimedia.ca>
> wrote:
>
> > Verifiability can be very different. For example oral sources.
> >
> > JP
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 8, 2017, 05:20 John Erling Blad, <jeb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Policy should not have local variations, unless you want to create
> > > something different from Wikipedia. This is about core content
> policies.
> > > Those are no original research, verifiability, and neutral point of
> view.
> > > The one most don't follow is neutral point of view, where projects
> > rewrite
> > > world history to focus on their own local view.
> > >
> > > On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 2:20 AM, Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > its the cultural differences that influence the policy, so who's
> > culture
> > > is
> > > > more significant than everyone elses that will dictate the policies.
> > > >
> > > > On 8 August 2017 at 08:14, John Erling Blad <jeb...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Yes there are cultural differences between wikipedias on _content_,
> > but
> > > > > there should be no differences on _policy_ about that content.
> > > > > Note also that there are some differences on use of _facts_ that
> are
> > > > highly
> > > > > troublesome, and that comes from relaxed core policies.
> > > > > Armenian genocide for example.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 3:48 PM, Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > to quote, worth a read before even considering policies being
> > global
> > > > > > http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/asi.23901/abstract
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This article explores the relationship between linguistic culture
> > and
> > > > the
> > > > > > > preferred standards of presenting information based on article
> > > > > > > representation in major Wikipedias. Using primary research
> > analysis
> > > > of
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > number of images, references, internal links, external links,
> > > words,
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > characters, as well as their proportions in Good and Featured
> > > > articles
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > the eight largest Wikipedias, we discover a high diversity of
> > > > > approaches
> > > > > > > and format preferences, correlating with culture. We
> demonstrate
> > > that
> > > > > > > high-quality standards in information presentation are not
> > globally
> > > > > > shared
> > > > > > > and that in many aspects, the language culture's influence
> > > determines
> > > > > > what
> > > > > > > is perceived to be proper, desirable, and exemplary for
> > > encyclopedic
> > > > > > > entries. As a result, we demonstrate that standards for
> > > encyclopedic
> > > > > > > knowledge are not globally agreed-upon and “objective” but
> local
> > > and
> > > > > very
> > > > > > > subjective.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 4 August 2017 at 10:18, Ziko van Dijk <zvand...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > The number of pillars depends on the language version...
> > > > > > > And whether some rules is called pilöar not dpes not seem to be
> > pf
> > > > much
> > > > > > > importance
> > > > > > > Ziko
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > John Erling Blad <jeb...@gmail.com> schrieb am Do. 3. Aug.
> 2017
> > um
> > > > > > 14:42:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Five pillars are moot.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Gnangarra <
> gnanga...@gmail.com
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The moment you have a centralised policy you take away the
> > > > ability
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > discuss, makes decisions, and achieve consensus from the
> > > > community
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > create the projects. Importantly you create the opportunity
> > for
> > > > > > banned
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > blocked editors to decide what happens in a community.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > By having a base set of simple policies in the Incubator
> that
> > > are
> > > > > > > > > atuomatically created when a project starts up you give
> them
> > > the
> > > > > best
> > > > > > > > guide
> > > > > > > > > to establishing themselves well before that project goes
> > live,
> > > > > ince a
> > > > > > > > > project is live it has to be allowed to develop its
> > community.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > We already have the 5 pillars which are the basis for the
> > > > projects,
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > meta is not a place that the content creating community
> > spends
> > > a
> > > > > lot
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > time.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On 3 August 2017 at 19:07, John Erling Blad <
> > jeb...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Having centralized core policies would lessen the
> > maintenance
> > > > and
> > > > > > > > > process,
> > > > > > > > > > not increase them.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 11:17 AM, Strainu <
> > > strain...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > The core policies should be the ones pushed by board
> > > > > resolution,
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > those should be the absolute minimum required to keep
> the
> > > > > > projects
> > > > > > > > > > > safe from a legal POV. Period. Otherwise, people with
> > > little
> > > > > > > > > > > understanding of small Wikipedias will try to push
> stuff
> > > from
> > > > > > > en.wp.
> > > > > > > > > > > Just recently someone was trying to have an RFC on meta
> > on
> > > > all
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > different processes that en.wp has and ro.wp does not
> > have,
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > little consideration on whether the manpower to
> > implement,
> > > > let
> > > > > > > alone
> > > > > > > > > > > maintain, these processes exists. No thank you to rule
> > > > pushing
> > > > > > > > without
> > > > > > > > > > > local context.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Having a community take a rule from en.wp is different,
> > > just
> > > > as
> > > > > > > long
> > > > > > > > > > > as some kind of discussion happens within the community
> > > about
> > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > Even
> > > > > > > > > > > if the rule is really useless or harmful and the
> > community
> > > > did
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > realize that in the beginning, at least it can evolve
> > > > > differently
> > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > the English one. Have a centralized repository and
> trying
> > > to
> > > > > > change
> > > > > > > > > > > the rules there by consensus would be much more
> difficult
> > > for
> > > > > > small
> > > > > > > > > > > communities.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Strainu
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > 2017-08-02 17:05 GMT+03:00 John Erling Blad <
> > > > jeb...@gmail.com
> > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > Nearly all Wikipedia projects has virtually the same
> > core
> > > > > > content
> > > > > > > > > > > policies,
> > > > > > > > > > > > but with slightly different wording. Nearly all,
> > because
> > > a
> > > > > lot
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > smaller lacks them, and a lot has outdated or only
> > > partial
> > > > > > > > policies.
> > > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > > > takes a lot of time to actually make them and keep
> them
> > > > > > updated.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Creating and maintaining the core content policies
> > should
> > > > not
> > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > something
> > > > > > > > > > > > that small projects should invest a lot of time in,
> > they
> > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > simply
> > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > able to point to existing policies on Meta. The
> central
> > > > > > policies
> > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > localized if necessary.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Checking Meta I find
> > > > > > > > > > > > - https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/The_no_original_research_
> > > > > > > policy
> > > > > > > > > > > > - https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Neutral_point_of_view
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I can't find anything like "Verifiability".
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Would it be possible for Wikimedia Foundation to make
> > > some
> > > > > > sound
> > > > > > > > > > baseline
> > > > > > > > > > > > policies, and with the option for local projects to
> > > refine
> > > > > > those?
> > > > > > > > > > Perhaps
> > > > > > > > > > > > with assistance from editors on Wikipedia?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Lets try to make the policies accurate, without "no
> > > > original
> > > > > > > > > research"
> > > > > > > > > > > > diverging into verifiability of external sources. It
> > > should
> > > > > be
> > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > original research in content on Wikipedia. Likewise,
> at
> > > > some
> > > > > > > > projects
> > > > > > > > > > > > neutral point of view has become "do not diverge from
> > > > > creators
> > > > > > > > point
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > view"…
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Would this be possible? It would be really nice if
> > those
> > > > > > baseline
> > > > > > > > > > > policies
> > > > > > > > > > > > pages could be copied to the individual projects like
> > > > central
> > > > > > > user
> > > > > > > > > > pages,
> > > > > > > > > > > > so they would be "internal" to the projects. Thus the
> > > > > projects
> > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > > > > more "ownership" of them.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > The same thing apply to other meta projects
> (Wikipedia,
> > > > > > > Wikibooks,
> > > > > > > > > > > > Wiktionary, etc).
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Jeblad
> > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > GN.
> > > > > > > > > President Wikimedia Australia
> > > > > > > > > WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
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> > > > > > President Wikimedia Australia
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