R,

if you know my contributions to this list, you also know that it is not
rare that I disagree with Foundation staff members. However, also I am very
uncomfortable with how you interact on this list, and the way you
communicate in general. This has only marginally to do with being on the
receiving end of the criticism. Especially the way you express your
criticisms, makes me cringe.

With you, I think a level of criticism is healthy. We do disagree strongly
on what is effective criticism, and what a healthy relationship looks like.
Without a healthy and safe climate, there is no way criticism can be
discussed in an effective way.

Lodewijk

On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 4:54 PM, Rogol Domedonfors <domedonf...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Lodewijk
>
> I agree that your second paragraph is quite likely to be correct.  I have
> consistently argued that the performance of the Foundation could be
> significantly improved if it were to engage more effectively with the
> Community, and that in the past it has failed to do so.  I have also
> suggested a number of ways that engagement could be enhanced.  I am aware
> that this is not always comfortable for the people who find themselves
> being criticised.  But I believe that it is in the long-term best interests
> of the Community, the Foundation and the Mission.  I hope and believe that
> the majority of the participants on the list can say the same about their
> own postings.
>
> Roland
>
> On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 9:46 PM, Lodewijk <lodew...@effeietsanders.org>
> wrote:
>
> > R,
> >
> > if it's worth anything (probably not), what Seddon wrote on this list
> could
> > in those exact wordings equally well have come from me. I don't think his
> > words are why this conversation turned sour.
> >
> > Unrelated to that: I'm pretty confident indeed that several of the
> > participants in this conversation are discussing these guidelines with
> your
> > behavior in mind in particular.
> >
> > Lodewijk
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 4:21 PM, Rogol Domedonfors <
> domedonf...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Dan
> > >
> > > Actually, being insulted and falsely accused of generalised misconduct
> > by a
> > > paid employee of the Foundation who has failed to read my post
> correctly
> > is
> > > what I call unconstructive behaviour.  But perhaps that is what you
> > expect
> > > the donors money to be spent on.
> > >
> > > Roald
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 9:14 PM, Dan Rosenthal <swatjes...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hey Rogol:
> > > >
> > > > "Alternatively,
> > > > perhaps you would prefer me to ask your line manager whether this is
> > the
> > > > sort of behaviour that she expects you to exhibit in a public forum."
> > > >
> > > > This is the kind of "unconstructive" behavior the list is talking
> > about.
> > > I
> > > > fail to see how threatening to tattle to someone's manager, because
> > they
> > > > disagreed with you about the wording of your posts in public, is
> either
> > > > constructive or the "sort of behavior" one would "expect you to
> exhibit
> > > in
> > > > a public forum." But then again, I'd venture to guess you knew that
> > > > already.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers.
> > > >
> > > > Dan Rosenthal
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 12:31 PM, Samuel Klein <meta...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Thoughtful, practical, good. Thank you.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Aug 22, 2017 9:03 PM, "John Mark Vandenberg" <jay...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi list members,
> > > > >
> > > > > The list admins (hereafter 'we', being Austin, Asaf, Shani and I,
> > your
> > > > > humble narrator) regularly receive complaints about the frequent
> > > > > posters on this list, as well as about the unpleasant atmosphere
> some
> > > > > posters (some of them frequent) create.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is natural that frequent posters will say specific things that
> > more
> > > > > frequently annoy other list members, but often the complaints are
> due
> > > > > to the volume of messages rather than the content of the messages.
> > > > >
> > > > > We are floating some suggestions aimed specifically at reducing the
> > > > > volume, hopefully motivating frequent posters to self-moderate
> more,
> > > > > but these proposed limits are actually intending to increasing the
> > > > > quality of the discourse without heavy subjective moderation.
> > > > >
> > > > > The first proposal impacts all posters to this list, and the last
> > > > > three proposals are aimed at providing a more clear framework
> within
> > > > > which criticism and whistle-blowing are permitted, but that critics
> > > > > are prevented from drowning out other discussions. The bandwidth
> that
> > > > > will be given to critics should be established in advance, reducing
> > > > > need to use subjective moderation of the content when a limit to
> the
> > > > > volume will often achieve the same result.
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > Proposal #1: Monthly 'soft quota' reduced from 30 to 15
> > > > >
> > > > > The existing soft quota of 30 posts per person has practically
> never
> > > > > been exceeded in the past year, and yet many list subscribers still
> > > > > clearly feel that a few individuals overwhelm the list. This
> suggests
> > > > > the current quota is too high.
> > > > >
> > > > > A review of the stats at
> > > > > https://stats.wikimedia.org/mail-lists/wikimedia-l.html show very
> > few
> > > > > people go over 15 in a month, and quite often the reason for people
> > > > > exceeding 15 per month is because they are replying to other list
> > > > > members who have already exceeded 15 per month, and sometimes they
> > are
> > > > > repeatedly directly or indirectly asking the person to stop
> repeating
> > > > > themselves to allow some space for other list members also have
> their
> > > > > opinion heard.
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > Proposal #2: Posts by globally banned people not permitted
> > > > >
> > > > > As WMF-banned people are already banned from mailing lists, this
> > > > > proposal is to apply the same ‘global’ approach to any people who
> > have
> > > > > been globally banned by the community according to the
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Global_bans policy.
> > > > >
> > > > > This proposal does not prevent proxying, or canvassing, or “meat
> > > > > puppetry” as defined by English Wikipedia policy.  The list admins
> > > > > would prefer that globally banned people communicate their
> grievances
> > > > > via established members of our community who can guide them, rather
> > > > > than the list admins initially guiding these globally banned people
> > on
> > > > > how to revise their posts so they are suitable for this audience,
> and
> > > > > then required to block them when they do not follow advice.  The
> role
> > > > > of list moderators is clearer and simpler if we are only patrolling
> > > > > the boundaries and not repeatedly personally engaged with helping
> > > > > globally banned users.
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > Proposal #3: Identity of an account locked / blocked / banned by
> two
> > > > > Wikimedia communities limited to five (5) posts per month
> > > > >
> > > > > This proposal is intended to strike a balance between openness and
> > > > > quality of discourse.
> > > > >
> > > > > Banned people occasionally use the wikimedia-l mailing list as a
> > > > > substitute of the meta Request for comment system, and banned
> people
> > > > > also occasionally provide constructive criticisms and thought
> > > > > provoking views.  This proposal hopes to allow that to continue.
> > > > >
> > > > > However people who have been banned on a few projects also use this
> > > > > list as their “last stand”, having already exhausted the community
> > > > > patience on the wikis.  Sometimes the last stand is brief, but
> > > > > occasionally a banned person is able to maintain sufficient decorum
> > > > > that they are not moderated or banned from the list, and mailing
> list
> > > > > readers need to suffer month after month of the banned person
> > > > > dominating the mailing lists with time that they would previously
> > have
> > > > > spent editing on the wikis.
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > Proposal #4: Undisclosed alternative identities limited to five (5)
> > > > > posts per month
> > > > >
> > > > > Posting using fake identities allows people to shield their real
> life
> > > > > *and* their Wikimedia editing 'account' from the repercussions of
> > > > > their actions. This provision to allow fake identities on
> wikimedia-l
> > > > > is necessary for whistle-blowing, and this mailing list has been
> used
> > > > > for that purpose at important junctures in the history of the
> > > > > Wikimedia movement.
> > > > >
> > > > > However it is more frequently abused, especially by some ‘critics’
> > who
> > > > > have used incessant hyperbole and snark and baiting to generally
> > cause
> > > > > stress to many readers. Sometimes this is also accompanied with
> many
> > > > > list posts on various unrelated threads as the ‘critic’ believes
> > their
> > > > > criticism is so important that all other discussions about
> Wikimedia
> > > > > should be diverted until their problem has been resolved to their
> > > > > satisfaction, which is unlikely anyway.
> > > > >
> > > > > Note this explicitly does not include anyone posting using their
> real
> > > > > world identity, whether or not they have a Wikimedia account.
> > > > >
> > > > > Where a poster does not clearly link to either Wikimedia account,
> or
> > > > > does not appear to be using a real identity, and only after it is
> > > > > exceeding the five post limit, the list admins will privately ask
> the
> > > > > poster to either verify their identity or stop posting until the
> end
> > > > > of the month.  Very frequently a whistle-blower is able and even
> > > > > prefers to be documenting the problem on meta, but needs the high
> > > > > profile of this list to spark the discussion and draw attention to
> > > > > their meta page.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ---
> > > > >
> > > > > The five post allowance for proposals 3 and 4 are to ensure that
> > > > > anyone who has not been globally banned can post criticisms without
> > > > > repercussions, which is vital for whistleblowing and  transparency
> > > > > generally, but they need to use their five posts per month wisely.
> > > > > Once they have used their five posts, community members can reply
> > with
> > > > > less concern about being drawn into a direct argument with the
> > poster.
> > > > > It aims to force the poster to listen to others in the community
> once
> > > > > their limit of five posts has been reached.
> > > > >
> > > > > If there is support for these proposals, the list admins would not
> > > > > immediately add moderation or bans, but would implement them as
> > > > > needed, when we notice someone has exceeded one of these limits,
> and
> > > > > we would make a note on a meta page where the community can review
> > > > > these actions without allowing moderation meta-discussion to
> dominate
> > > > > the discourse on the mailing list. Refinements to the list
> moderation
> > > > > limits can then occur organically as we see how these rules plays
> out
> > > > > in practise.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The RFC is at https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Requests_for_comment/
> > > > > wikimedia-l-post-limits
> > > > >
> > > > > However please also feel welcome to reply on-list if you wish to
> > > > > express explicit support or opposition to any of the four proposals
> > > > > above (please identify them by number, to ease counting).  We will
> > > > > count votes (here and on the meta RFC) after two weeks, and post a
> > > > > more refined final version back to this mailing list.
> > > > >
> > > > > The list administrators will default to *enacting* all four
> > proposals,
> > > > > but will refrain from enacting any proposal receiving more
> opposition
> > > > > than support.
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > John Vandenberg
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=
> unsubscribe>
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=
> unsubscribe>
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> > > i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Reply via email to