I'd like to second what Rob has expressed here. This list already suffers a
very poor reputation within our community, even as it is positioned as an
important part of our communications ecosystem.

Allowing participants to intimidate others and exact "in real life"
consequences should be dealt with in the most severe manner. If we do
not meatball:DefendEachOther, and deliver the basic safety needs of the
list membership, how can we in good conscience keep this list running and
encourage participation?

-Andrew


On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 12:12 PM, Robert Fernandez <wikigamal...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I am grateful that the moderators have taken some action, but I am
> disappointed that contacting a person's employer is not yet seen as an
> uncrossable line here.
>
> Out of respect to your call for civility I will refrain from directly
> responding to the person in question despite his allegations against me.
> It is a mistake to frame this as a free speech issue.  It is of course in
> the interests of a person engaging in bullying and harassing behavior to
> claim people are trying to suppress their powerful truths, but there is no
> reason we have to accept this duplicitous framing.  The content of the
> message is immaterial, the behavior is the issue.  Some people may see this
> as a grey area given that it was a Foundation employee, but I see it as a
> slippery slope.  Seddon's job is almost certainly safe, but this might not
> be the case for the next victim.  Will the poster in question decide that I
> am "bullying and harassing" him and attempt to contact my employer next?
>
> Most of my fellow board members of my chapter are the employees of US
> government agencies or connected to the Foundation as an employee or a
> grant recipient.   Given the unusual political climate in the US I worry
> that the former group are particularly vulnerable to harassment targeting
> their employment.   (Media outlets favored by the current US presidential
> administration have targeted individual Wikimedia editors, including
> myself, in the past.)  If participants on this list are allowed to engage
> in this sort of harassment without real consequence, I will advise that my
> chapter and its board members and volunteers no longer participate on this
> list due to the risk to their livelihoods.
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 5:45 AM, Shani Evenstein <shani.e...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Dear Wikimedia-l,
> >
> > Rogol has been placed under moderation, but at this point no decision has
> > been made to ban him from the list. As long as his messages are
> reasonable,
> > respectful and on point, his messages will go through. We agreed that it
> is
> > important to allow a diversity of voices to be heard, including those of
> > "frequent flyers" in the list, especially as we work collaboratively on
> > next steps towards a healthier community atmosphere.
> >
> > In addition, we are asking everyone to refrain from focusing on specific
> > individuals posting to the list, put any personal issues aside and stay
> on
> > problem. We want as many people as possible to productively and
> objectively
> > participate in the discussion, till we draft clearer guidelines for
> posting
> > to the list. We are aware that these guidelines will not automagically
> fix
> > all of our issues as a global community, but we believe they will help
> > reduce the noise substantially. Do keep on debating. We are trying to
> > intervene as little as possible at this point and let the debate run its
> > course.
> >
> > Best,
> > Shani Evenstein, on behalf of the Wikimedia-l Admins.
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 8:52 PM, James Salsman <jsals...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Why are we having this RFC prior to the survey which was discussed at
> >> length less than a year ago?
> >>
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:James_Salsman#Peri
> >> odic_survey_prototype
> >>
> >> On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 1:05 AM, Robert Fernandez
> >> <wikigamal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Since Rogol has followed through on his threat he should be banned
> from
> >> the
> >> > list, or we should have a public statement from the moderators
> regarding
> >> > why they will not do so.
> >> >
> >> > I can't imagine many actions that would have a more chilling effect on
> >> > participation here than one of this list's most frequent posters
> >> contacting
> >> > your employer because he disagrees with what you have to say.
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 7:57 AM, Joseph Seddon <jsed...@wikimedia.org
> >
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Since you kindly emailed my line manage Rogol, I wanted to confirm
> >> that my
> >> >> choice of words were very carefully chosen.
> >> >>
> >> >> And I stand by them.
> >> >>
> >> >> Seddon
> >> >>
> >> >> On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 8:25 PM, Rogol Domedonfors <
> >> domedonf...@gmail.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > Joseph
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I chose my wording quite carefully, and suggest that you do so too.
> >> I
> >> >> said
> >> >> > that the proposal "involves", not "is equal to" real-life identity
> >> To
> >> >> the
> >> >> > extent that real-life identities are involved, it is reasonable to
> >> ask
> >> >> how
> >> >> > that personal information is going to be handled.  For some reason,
> >> you
> >> >> > seem keen to derail that part of the discussion by elevating a
> >> quibble
> >> >> over
> >> >> > your hasty misunderstanding of my wording into an accusation,
> which I
> >> >> > reject, of generalised misconduct.  If you have some comment to
> make
> >> >> about
> >> >> > the handling of personal information, please do so.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > May I suggest that you withdraw your original posting, apologise to
> >> the
> >> >> > membership of this list for the unconstructive nature of your
> >> posting,
> >> >> and
> >> >> > to me for its aggressive, insulting and incorrect content.
> >> >> Alternatively,
> >> >> > perhaps you would prefer me to ask your line manager whether this
> is
> >> the
> >> >> > sort of behaviour that she expects you to exhibit in a public
> forum.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Reginald
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 8:07 PM, Joseph Seddon <
> >> jsed...@wikimedia.org>
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > > Real identity does not equal real-life identity. You can mask
> your
> >> >> > > pseudonymous identity and pose as a third party similarly
> >> pseudonymous
> >> >> > > individual.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet)
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Seddon
> >> >> > > _______________________________________________
> >> >> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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> >> >> > > wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> >> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Seddon
> >> >>
> >> >> *Advancement Associate (Community Engagement)*
> >> >> *Wikimedia Foundation*
> >> >> _______________________________________________
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