I must echo Lodewijk's words.

Washing dirty linen in public is beneficial to no one and damages everyone
involved including those making the accusations. There will be and are
lessons to be learned but right now there is a huge chilling effect from
the presence of lawyers on many sides and there is nothing to be gained
from this thread. There are proper avenues to deal with this, and if you
deem them appropriate then use hem, but this place is not one of those
avenues.

Regards
Seddon

On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 6:18 PM, Lodewijk <lodew...@effeietsanders.org>
wrote:

> While this topic is painful and important, I don't have the feeling any
> progress is being made by continuing this tirade on this mailing list.
>
> I can see that hiring lawyers to investigate, will (at least in my culture)
> always have a whiff of subjectivity. Even though this seems (from what I
> understand) to be the default approach in the US, which is the primary
> context in which the WMF operates. I would like to emphasize one sentence
> in Katherine's email: "the Foundation remains fully committed to reviewing
> and investigating additional information, if presented, of sexual or other
> harassment allegedly committed by any Wikimedia Foundation staff or board
> member. " This sounds to me as an invitation to the plaintiffs (*) to
> request to reopen the investigation and present further testimony and
> evidence. For obvious privacy concerns, I imagine this won't happen in
> public. I hope that they will make use of this offer.
>
> What I don't see however, is what the alternate pathway is that the
> plaintiffs have in mind. It is suggested that this is a complaint that has
> been filed with the judicial system in France, which makes it even harder
> for anyone involved to publicly comment (while I'm not legally schooled, I
> suspect that any lawyer would probably advise against it). Therefore, I
> don't have the impression that continuing the very personal discussion
> about individuals without offering an alternative pathway is particularly
> helpful - especially as we don't even know in detail what the allegations
> are (a crucial piece of context). I'm even more concerned where discussions
> start to be held through the media (although I'm not sure I misunderstood
> that part).
>
> The plaintiffs have however also mentioned that the general climate should
> be improved. That seems a topic where public conversations can actually be
> helpful. I don't have a shred of doubt that there was a toxic climate in
> Wikimedia France. Both parties accuse each other for being responsible for
> that. What I would be more interested in, is what you as the WMFR
> community, or we as the international community, could have done to
> de-escalate that situation much earlier. This is not the first conflict
> situation in our movement, and I fear it'll be the last.
>
> When the dust has settled a bit, I would be in favor of asking (a subset
> of) the Affiliations Committee to look into the situation (and perhaps
> similar conflicts in other communities that were less visible), and come
> with some recommendations. This will probably not be very satisfactory for
> the involved parties where it comes to 'justice being done' - but it may
> help avoid more pain in the future.
>
> With a sad heart,
>
> Lodewijk
>
> (*) The reason I'm not mentioning people by name is not because I don't
> respect them, but because I don't necessarily want this thread to turn up
> in search results for eternity. I imagine others may have similar good
> faith reasons.
>
> On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 8:21 AM, Frans Grijzenhout <fr...@wikimedia.nl>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Remi, You're mail is one big complaint, may I remind you to the last
> > phrase of your Board Handbook? It states: Fortes capacité
> d’auto-évaluation
> > ​ (​Strong self-assessment capability). Thank you, Frans
> >
> >
> > *Frans Grijzenhout*, voorzitter / chair
> > +31 6 5333 9499
> > --
> > *Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland*
> > Mariaplaats 3  -  3511 LH Utrecht
> > Kamer van Koophandel 17189036
> > http://www.wikimedia.nl/
> >
> > 2017-10-20 13:49 GMT+02:00 Rémi Mathis <mathis.r...@gmail.com>:
> >
> > > Katherine,
> > >
> > > I told you a month ago "Maybe you should reply as a responsible human
> > being
> > > and not as a trained crisis communication people". This is truer
> > everyday.
> > >
> > > What did you write this email yesterday, and not one,two, three months
> > ago?
> > > Because I left Wikimedia France, because a Fields Medallist left,
> because
> > > the president of Picasso Museum left, and because journalists began to
> > talk
> > > about the harassment and the violence of some members of the community.
> > > Because the fact that Nathalie Martin had filed a complaint against
> > > Christophe Henner begins to spread not only amongst the community but
> > also
> > > outside.
> > > Because the articles made people aware of the problem and that they are
> > > victims too, and new testimonies are being sent to journalists.
> > > Because you met Christophe Henner in person the day before.
> > >
> > > Because you are doing your job to protect your boss and make as little
> > > noise as possible. But when I donate to Wikimedia, when I edit
> Wikipedia,
> > > that's not what I want from you. I want a safe community.
> > >
> > > I wrote to you, Christophe and your team more than ten times between
> July
> > > and today. I even met your Legal Conselor and Christophe Henner to talk
> > > about the harassment. I never got an email back from you. Not a single
> > word
> > > to a private message I sent. You only answered once on Twitter, because
> > it
> > > was a public conversation.
> > >
> > > Now, I'm for you "an individual", you never only *say my name*.
> > > At the same time, I receive a letter from Henner's lawyer trying to
> make
> > me
> > > remove my post.
> > > Still keeping people quiet instead of accepting and therefore tackling
> > the
> > > problems.
> > >
> > > I spent nine years working for the movement as a benevolent member. I
> > have
> > > been chair for 3 years, I worked 9-12pm for the movement for years, I
> was
> > > threatened by the French Intelligence Service. And thanks to this
> > > dedication, I made a lot of friends ; I met a lot of extraordinay
> people
> > ;
> > > we contracted with the Bibliothèque nationale, Versailles Palace,
> > > Ministries, etc. We made a huge and very good job.
> > >
> > > Now, do you really think I'm leaving with no reason? Do you really
> think
> > > I'm a liar or frivolous? Do you think I'm being manipulated by an evil
> > > witch we had to get rid of - as some say to journalists and some add
> > (with
> > > neutrality of course) to the Wikipedia article about me?
> > >
> > > Denouncing the violence, I'm losing 30 of my closest friends, stopping
> > one
> > > of my favouriste activities and canceling 9 years of my life.
> > >
> > > Sending an email like this one, "managing" instead of "caring", you
> only
> > do
> > > the job you're getting paid for.
> > > But, maybe you also realise that you are shatterring lives of
> > > "individuals"... who have no names. But since we don't even have names,
> > > since there is no violence or harassment problem to deal with, I'm sure
> > you
> > > will never have any problem to look at yourself in a mirror.
> > >
> > > Even Hollywood is facing the violence and harassment problem. Wikimedia
> > > still doesn't.
> > > I'm sad. But now I'm only sad for you and one of the greatest human
> > > projects of the time, you are currently making vile and foul.
> > > As for me, it's over.
> > >
> > > X, individual [used to be] associated with our movement
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 19 October 2017 at 23:19, Katherine Maher <kma...@wikimedia.org>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Everyone,
> > > >
> > > > The past six months have been a complex and troubling time for our
> > > > community in France. Let me be absolutely clear, with no confusion or
> > > > ambiguity, that the Wikimedia Foundation condemns harassment. We take
> > all
> > > > harassment claims seriously, investigate them promptly, and take the
> > > > appropriate action to enforce our policies whenever necessary. My
> goal
> > > here
> > > > today is to provide more information about the actions of the
> Wikimedia
> > > > Foundation, the principles to which we adhere, and the situation in
> > which
> > > > our movement finds itself.
> > > >
> > > > As many of you know, there have been months of discussion within the
> > > French
> > > > Wikimedia community, independent committees and governance bodies,
> and
> > > the
> > > > Wikimedia Foundation about the governance and operations of Wikimédia
> > > > France. During this time, we have seen growing tensions between a
> > number
> > > of
> > > > the former leaders of Wikimédia France and some members of the French
> > > > Wikimedia community. This situation created great strain on the
> French
> > > > community, former and current staff of Wikimédia France, and
> concerned
> > > > Wikimedia volunteers around the world. Much of this was documented by
> > > > community members[1] and in the press.[2] Over the past months the
> > > > Foundation has received formal and informal complaints alleging
> > > harassment
> > > > and other harmful behaviour, and we have enforced existing policies
> > > > whenever applicable.
> > > >
> > > > Recently, an individual associated with our movement published an
> essay
> > > > about the events in France on the blogging site Medium and shared
> that
> > > > essay with this list. It contained a number of deeply concerning
> > > > allegations of harassment. Let me first address the most troubling
> > claims
> > > > of the recent essay—those regarding the Foundation’s handling of
> > > > allegations against the Wikimedia Foundation’s current Board Chair.
> > > >
> > > > In May of 2017 the Wikimedia Foundation was informed, in a letter and
> > for
> > > > the first time, that the then-Executive Director of Wikimédia France
> > was
> > > > alleging claims of harassment against the current Board Chair of the
> > > > Wikimedia Foundation, dating back to his tenure as former Chair of
> > > > Wikimédia France. In this letter the Executive Director described a
> > > number
> > > > of interactions with the Foundation’s Board Chair when he was Chair
> of
> > > > Wikimédia France, and went on to accuse him of using his position as
> > > > Foundation Board Chair to to turn the Wikimedia Foundation’s
> sentiment
> > > > against the French chapter.
> > > >
> > > > Contrary to the assertion in the Medium essay, while the former
> > Wikimédia
> > > > France Executive Director’s letter detailed tense and disagreeable
> > > > interactions between the two individuals, it did not characterize
> those
> > > > interactions as sexual harassment. Also contrary to the essay’s
> > > assertions,
> > > > the Wikimedia Foundation took immediate and appropriate action after
> > > > receiving the complaint.
> > > >
> > > > The Wikimedia Foundation, under clear direction from our Board,
> > responded
> > > > promptly:
> > > >
> > > >    - We notified the Vice Chair and Board Governance Chair
> immediately
> > > >    after receiving the then-Executive Director’s letter.
> > > >    - Under their direction and supervision, we promptly hired expert
> > > French
> > > >    legal counsel to conduct an investigation on this issue.
> > > >    - The Foundation Board Chair was informed of the investigation and
> > > >    recused from all relevant discussions. The Board Chair was also
> > > recused
> > > >    from any discussion regarding Wikimédia France and the French
> > > Wikimedia
> > > >    community, including any participation in funding decisions.
> > > >    - The investigation by the experts found that the French chapter’s
> > > >    Executive Director’s detailed statements of facts, in addition to
> > not
> > > > being
> > > >    characterized by her as sexual harassment, also did not support a
> > > > finding
> > > >    of sexual harassment.
> > > >    - Based on the information provided, French counsel also looked at
> > > >    whether the allegations supported a finding of “moral” harassment,
> > > >    ultimately concluding that they did not.
> > > >    - The findings were conveyed to the then-chair of the board of
> > > Wikimédia
> > > >    France. The chapter leadership was asked on more than one occasion
> > if
> > > it
> > > >    had any additional evidence or wished to further discuss the
> > > > conclusions.
> > > >    No additional information was provided.
> > > >    - Under these circumstances, the Board of the Wikimedia Foundation
> > > found
> > > >    no merit to the charges.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > *As has been repeatedly stated, the Foundation remains fully
> committed
> > to
> > > > reviewing and investigating additional information, if presented, of
> > > sexual
> > > > or other harassment allegedly committed by any Wikimedia Foundation
> > staff
> > > > or board member. We fully condemn harassment in the Wikimedia
> > movement.*
> > > >
> > > > The essay in Medium also references experiences of a number of former
> > > > Wikimédia France Board members who reportedly left their posts
> because
> > of
> > > > alleged harassment from French Wikimedia community members. In the
> > > majority
> > > > of these cases, the Wikimedia Foundation has not received complaints
> > and
> > > > has no further information about these allegations.
> > > >
> > > > We are aware that some people working at the Foundation for some
> months
> > > > have received comments from a number of community members through
> > > informal
> > > > channels about alleged intra-community harassment. These included
> > > > complaints and allegations of harassment made against the former
> > > Wikimédia
> > > > France Executive Director and then-Board Chair by Wikimédia France
> > staff
> > > > and community members, as well as counter-complaints from former
> > > Wikimédia
> > > > France board members against members of the French community. In each
> > > > instance of which we are aware, the individual raising the complaint
> > was
> > > > directed to the Wikimedia Foundation’s Support and Safety team, which
> > is
> > > > trained and equipped to independently investigate and assess these
> > > matters,
> > > > particularly where members of the larger Wikimedia community are
> > > concerned.
> > > >
> > > > In total, the Foundation received roughly a dozen of these
> complaints.
> > > Each
> > > > of these complaints received by the Foundation was investigated and
> > > > responded to promptly, enforcing the relevant anti-harassment
> policies
> > > > whenever appropriate. In some cases, and when appropriate, our
> response
> > > > resulted in content (for example, content that identified Wikimedia
> > > > community members who guarded their anonymity) being removed from
> > public
> > > > websites or the Foundation contacting users who posted inappropriate
> > > > material. In others, we found that while certain comments at times
> > > crossed
> > > > the lines of civility, the actions did not meet the threshold of
> > sanction
> > > > under our policies or constitute intentional or sustained patterns of
> > > > harassment.
> > > >
> > > > As a cumulative result of these complaints, the Wikimedia Foundation
> > has
> > > > recommended to Wikimédia France that they take immediate steps to
> > > implement
> > > > a friendly space policy. At the chapter’s exceptional September
> general
> > > > assembly, the motion to develop and implement a friendly space policy
> > > > passed with overwhelming support, with 98% of the membership voting
> in
> > > > favor.[3] The Wikimedia Foundation has offered Wikimédia France our
> > > > assistance with this policy’s composition and implementation.
> > > >
> > > > We are committed to working with the new Wikimédia France conseil
> > > > d’administration (governing board) to support the French community as
> > > they
> > > > work to address and resolve these and other outstanding issues. The
> > > > Wikimedia Foundation and the new leadership of Wikimédia France are
> > > already
> > > > cooperating to address the governance-related concerns raised by the
> > > > volunteer Funds Dissemination Committee in the first half of 2017. As
> > > part
> > > > of this work, we have encouraged them to review how they will
> > > independently
> > > > handle claims of harassment in the future. The Wikimedia Foundation
> and
> > > > Wikimédia France share a common goal: a healthy, welcoming,
> respectful,
> > > > inclusive Wikimedia community in France.
> > > >
> > > > I know I am not alone in my dismay for how these events have
> unfolded.
> > > Many
> > > > dedicated, good-faith members of the French community, including
> > current
> > > > community members and present and former Wikimédia France board and
> > staff
> > > > members, have experienced distress and anxiety over recent months.
> > Those
> > > > outside of the community have watched with dismay as our peers and
> > > friends
> > > > have found themselves disoriented, distressed, alienated, or at odds
> > with
> > > > one another. And yet we also know that many in France now feel a
> > renewed
> > > > sense of purpose for building the healthy and welcoming community we
> > all
> > > > desire.
> > > >
> > > > Situations such as the recent events in France provide us with an
> > > > opportunity to learn from the past in order to do better in the
> future.
> > > We
> > > > have seen this time and again in our communities, as organizations
> > > > (including the Wikimedia Foundation) have emerged from governance and
> > > other
> > > > challenges stronger, with deepened commitments to openness,
> > > collaboration,
> > > > and humility.
> > > >
> > > > Today is another such opportunity.
> > > >
> > > > Katherine
> > > >
> > > > [1] https://www.mathisbenguigui.eu/wikimedia-timeline/
> > > >
> > > > [2]
> > > > http://www.lemonde.fr/pixels/article/2017/09/11/vers-une-
> > > > sortie-de-crise-a-wikimedia-france_5184101_4408996.html
> > > >
> > > > http://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/rue89/rue89-nos-vies-
> > > > connectees/20170718.OBS2248/exclusions-menaces-budget-
> > > > recale-c-est-la-crise-chez-wikimedia-france.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [3]
> > > > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/
> > > > WMFR_AG_2017-09-09.pdf/page1-2550px-WMFR_AG_2017-09-09.pdf.jpg
> > > >
> > > >
> >
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