Le 30/11/2017 à 00:23, Nicolas VIGNERON a écrit :
That's perfectly plausible that my view is fuelled with biases and
misjudgements, and that's why I'm looking for feedback that might help
in correcting them if needed. I prefer to expose my errors blatantly and
seize opportunities to correct them rather than confine myself in my
possibly misguided views.
I know you and like you personally, that why I can say that this mail
is clearly not your best argument.
Despite saying multiple times this is not a manifesto nor against
Wikidata, your mail seems clearly fuelled with biases and
misjudgements (especially Wikidata can't be « discontinued quietly »
not now that it's so widely used in Wikimedia projects, even the
wiktionaries are *already* using Wikidata).
Of course, the statement that Wikidata can't be « discontinued quietly »
is shocking. Surely I'm a little provocative here. But one have to put
that in perspective with the fact that my previous attempts to get
feedback on this were far less provocative, or at least were aiming at
being as unprovocative as I could do. So I recognize you are right to
point this, all the more as I made my previous more cordial demands in
less visible canals.
Dissecting each single phrase point by point is violent, borderline
mean and definitely not constructive ; cross-posting this mail on
multiple places doesn't help either. This is not the good way to
First, if people felt personally assaulted by my message, I apologize. I
wasn't aware that treating a topic point by point extensively could be
perceived as such a violent behaviour. I don't want to harass anyone, I
want to get constructive feedback on this topic from as many people of
our community that I can get. If there are better way to achieve this
through documented peaceful process, I would welcome references to this
kind of documentation. And if we don't have that kind of documentation,
I think it would be interesting that we build one.
Actually, with CC0 – if it appeared that all the data contained in
Wikidata really can be published under CC0 – we could switch the whole
database to whatever license we want. That was even explicitly stated as
is at the start of the project that:
For better or worse, Wikidata choose CC0 and it will be quite
difficult to change the licence now (the example of licence change on
OpenStreetMap illustrate it quite painfully).
So do I understand it correctly that during development and testing,
we can can go with CC-0, and later relicense to whatever seems
suitable, which is possible with CC-0?, Denny Vrandečić,
But as far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't suggest for such a unilateral
move. For me, just allowing a tracking of license for each item would be
We have to get approval of the community, there was multiple lengthy
and non-conclusive discussions, it's not something that will be done
with a ranting mail.
I'm interested with links to this community discussions and clear
approval of the community.
I agree with that, or at least that it would be very positive for our
community to have this kind of tools.
For me, the situation is quite simple, Wikidata needs lexiographical
data and the Wikimedia projects needs Wikidata to have these data.
Nobody suggest in no way to do license laundering nor to violates
It's not suggestion, it's what Wikidata is already doing with Wikipedia,
despite the initial statement of Wikidata team that it wouldn't do
that because it's illegal :
/"Alexrk2, it is true that Wikidata under CC0 would not be allowed
to import content from a Share-Alike data source. Wikidata does not
plan to extract content out of Wikipedia at all. Wikidata will
provide data that can be reused in the Wikipedias./"
– Denny Vrandečić
I think that the extent to which massive import without respecting
license of the source should be investigated properly by the Wikimedia
legal team, or some qualified consultants.
In the mid time, based on its previous practises, it's clear that
promises of Wikidata team regarding respect of licenses can not be
trusted. So even if they suggested that that kind of massive import
won't be done, it wouldn't be enough.
in fact we could simply import Public Domain sources (in the same way
the wiktionaries did, in frwikt a big chunk of entries come from the
/Littré/ and the /Dictionnaire de l’Académie française/, and there is
enough dictionaries waiting in the Wikisources to keep us busy for
years) but it would be a shame for Wikidata to not profits from
I agree with that. All the more, all this material we imported helped
much in populating the project, but it often includes heavy biases,
outdated definitions which are not marked as is, completely sexists and
racists definitions that we are improving with the goals and values of
our movement in mind. So it's not just expertise of contributors, but
also all the work they already achieved that should be mergeable in the
Wikidata solution. Only allowing CC0 will make that impossible.
Let's get over the petty and unsolvable issues and work intelligently
and pragmatically to improve Wikidata.
I'm not trying to destroy the work of any part of our community, but on
the contrary I'm aiming at protect its sustainability. If my concerns
are only mere delusions, that's great. But if it's not, I would feel
ashamed in the future that I suspected possible avoidable bad scenario
and did nothing about that.
You entitled to disagree with the way that has been chosen and not
take part in it (and from your editcount, I see that you don't) but
please don't destroy others efforts and try to be more aligned with
All the more, Wikidata aims at being ubiquitous under all Wikimedia
projects, even if some integration are moderated through community
consensus. So there is no way I might avoid it completely while
continuing to contribute in Wikimedia projects. Actually I have recently
learn that there are already data which are automatically inserted in
Wikidata when publishing contributions on others mediawiki projects, but
so far I'm not aware of what is cover exactly. All the more, I am in
fact very favourable to a more ubiquitous integration of Wikidata in our
ecosystem. But not with the current license conditions.
I hope my answer wasn't too point by point so that it wont fall in the
problems you mentioned.
A galon, ~nicolas
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