Seems like this is mostly about cultural ownership and appropriation. Not
sure if it is possible to agree on this.

On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 6:08 PM, Vi to <vituzzu.w...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'll reply to the most recent email just for laziness.
>
> I'm doubtful for a series of reasons, most of were already expressed in a
> better way by others:
> *a remuneration in terms of quantity will weaken the quality of
> translations unless there's a strong mechanism of quality verification
> requiring a quantity of resources comparable to translations themselves;
> *articles are the result of a long process which reflects cultural identity
> of different communities, I'm not confident with transferring them to a
> different "weaker" cultures. My usage of "weaker" adjective only focuses
> about the strength of a cultural presence on the Internet;
> *articles to be translated are at high risk of reflecting the cultural
> identity (and biases) of the Western culture;
> *finally I think paid translators would hardly turn into stable
> Wikipedians.
>
> IMHO some paid editing may be better exploited in order to digitalise texts
> of unrepresented cultures (wikisource) or preserving their vocabularies
> (wiktionary).
>
> Also those languages which are secondary for all their speakers should be
> dealt with in a different fashion. I, for one, am a native speaker of
> specific variant of Sicilian, Sicilian is a secondary language to any of
> its speakers. Honestly, I'd find pointless to read the biography of
> Leonardo da Vinci in Sicilian while I can find thousands of books about him
> in Italian. Also I find this kind of translation creates a fake "literary"
> language totally detached from reality: there's no "encaustic painting" in
> Sicilian, still a Sicilian article about Leonardo will invent one.
>
> As a general principle we should always collect, rather than create,
> knowledge.
>
> Vito
>
> 2018-02-24 16:30 GMT+01:00 John Erling Blad <jeb...@gmail.com>:
>
> > My reply can be read as a bit more harsh than intended, it was merely a
> > statement about my present experience about translators in general.
> >
> > The problem with lack of contributors (and translators) in a specialized
> > area is that there is a small community, and within this community some
> > kind of selection is made. Each time a selection is repeated the
> remaining
> > group shrinks. Specialize the selection sufficiently many times and there
> > will be no contributors (or translators) left. It is simply a game of
> > probabilities. Thus, to make such a project work it must have a
> > sufficiently broad scope for the articles. Articles about public health
> > services will probably work even for a pretty small language group, but
> > specialized medical articles might create a problem. But then you find
> > a retired
> > orthopedic surgeon like Subas Chandra Rout…
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 4:04 PM, James Heilman <jmh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I agree with John that it is very difficult to turn a translator into a
> > new
> > > editor. I also agree with Jean-Philippe that it is key to have
> > involvement
> > > of the local projects and preferable if they lead the efforts. Of the
> > > languages we worked in only one explicitly requested not to be
> involved /
> > > have translations from TWB.
> > >
> > > James
> > >
> > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 7:59 AM, John Erling Blad <jeb...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > You can turn it around; give added credits for translations from
> small
> > > > language projects and into the larger ones, that is a lot more
> > > interesting
> > > > than strictly translating from the larger language projects.
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:55 PM, Jean-Philippe Béland <
> > > > jpbel...@wikimedia.ca
> > > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I think the request for such projects should come from the
> concerned
> > > > > language projects, same for the list of articles. If not, in my
> > simple
> > > > > opinion, it is a form of coloniasm again.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jean-Philippe Béland
> > > > > Vice President, Wikimedia Canada
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 9:40 AM John Erling Blad <jeb...@gmail.com
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Should have added that the remaining points are somewhat less
> > > > interesting
> > > > > > in this context. Preloading a set of articles is a bad idea, the
> > > > > > translators should be able to chose for themselves. Articles
> should
> > > > also
> > > > > be
> > > > > > pretty broad, not very narrow technical or medical, ie vertical
> > > > articles,
> > > > > > as the number of editors that can handle those will be pretty
> > small.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In particular: Do not believe you can turn a teanslator into a
> new
> > > > > editor!
> > > > > > You can although turn an existing editor into a translator.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:34 PM, John Erling Blad <
> > jeb...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all
> articles
> > > are
> > > > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Note that to much pressure on "quality" can easily kill the
> > > project.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made
> > efforts
> > > > > more
> > > > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to
> see
> > > that
> > > > > > tool
> > > > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific lists of
> > > > articles
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also
> > > love
> > > > > the
> > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Didn't mention ContentTranslation, but it should be pretty
> > obvious.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our
> > partner
> > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that
> > languages
> > > > in
> > > > > > >> which
> > > > > > >> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and
> > Italian
> > > > > there
> > > > > > >> is
> > > > > > >> often already at least some content on many of the topics in
> > > > question.
> > > > > > The
> > > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert
> Wikipedia.
> > > And
> > > > > for
> > > > > > >> languages in which we have little content there are often few
> > > > > avaliable
> > > > > > >> volunteers.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I used projects below 65k articles as an example, as the chance
> > of
> > > > > > > competing articles are pretty low.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would
> > > > require
> > > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are taking
> > the
> > > > > work
> > > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70 or
> so
> > > > > > languages
> > > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo
> a
> > > > second
> > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests to
> > be
> > > > > > >> accepted.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'n my original email I wrote "verified good translators". It
> is
> > as
> > > > > > > simple as "Has the editor contributed other articles at the
> > > project?"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 2:26 PM, James Heilman <
> jmh...@gmail.com
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> We learned a few things during the medical translation project
> > > which
> > > > > > >> started back in 2011:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> 1) You must start with high quality content and thus all
> > articles
> > > > are
> > > > > > >> extensively improved before being proposed for translation.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> 2) A lot of languages want "less" content than is present on
> EN
> > > WP.
> > > > > Thus
> > > > > > >> we
> > > > > > >> moved to just improving and suggesting for translation the
> leads
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > >> English articles.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> 3) The "Content Translation" tool developed by the WMF made
> > > efforts
> > > > > more
> > > > > > >> efficient than handing around word documents. Would love to
> see
> > > that
> > > > > > tool
> > > > > > >> improved further such as having it support specific lists of
> > > > articles
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > >> are deemed ready for translation by certain groups. Would also
> > > love
> > > > > the
> > > > > > >> tool to have tracking metrics for these types of projects.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> 4) We used volunteer translators mostly associated with our
> > > partner
> > > > > > >> Translators Without Borders. One issue we found was that
> > languages
> > > > in
> > > > > > >> which
> > > > > > >> their are lots of translators such as French, Spanish, and
> > Italian
> > > > > there
> > > > > > >> is
> > > > > > >> often already at least some content on many of the topics in
> > > > question.
> > > > > > The
> > > > > > >> issue than becomes integration which needs an expert
> Wikipedia.
> > > And
> > > > > for
> > > > > > >> languages in which we have little content there are often few
> > > > > avaliable
> > > > > > >> volunteers.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> 5) With respect to "paying per word" the problem is this would
> > > > require
> > > > > > >> significant checks and balances to make sure people are taking
> > the
> > > > > work
> > > > > > >> seriously and not simple using Google translate for the 70 or
> so
> > > > > > languages
> > > > > > >> in which it claims to work. We often had translations undergo
> a
> > > > second
> > > > > > >> review and the volunteers at TWB have to pass certain tests to
> > be
> > > > > > >> accepted.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> 6) I hired a coordinator for the translation project for a
> > couple
> > > of
> > > > > > >> years.
> > > > > > >> The translators at TWB did not want to become Wikipedians or
> > learn
> > > > how
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > >> use our systems. The coordinator created account like
> TransSW001
> > > > (one
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > >> each volunteer) and preloaded the article to be translated
> into
> > > > > Content
> > > > > > >> Translation. They than gave the volunteer translator the user
> > name
> > > > and
> > > > > > >> password to the account.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> 7) Were are we at now? There are currently just over 1,000
> leads
> > > of
> > > > > > >> articles that have been improved and are ready for
> translation.
> > > This
> > > > > > >> includes articles on the 440 medications that are on the WHO
> > > > Essential
> > > > > > >> List. We have worked a bit in some 100 languages. The efforts
> > have
> > > > > > >> resulted
> > > > > > >> in more than 5 million works translated and integrated into
> > > > different
> > > > > > >> Wikipedias. The coordinator has unfortunately moved on to his
> > real
> > > > job
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > >> teaching high school students.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> 8) The project continues but at a slower pace than before. The
> > > > > > Wikipedian
> > > > > > >> and retired orthopedic surgeon Subas Chandra Rout has
> basically
> > > > single
> > > > > > >> handedly translated nearly all 1,000 leads into Odia a
> language
> > > > spoken
> > > > > > by
> > > > > > >> 40 million people in Eastern India. The amazing thing is that
> > for
> > > > many
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > >> these topics this is the first and only information online
> about
> > > it.
> > > > > > >> Google
> > > > > > >> translate does not even claim to work in this language. Our
> > > > > partnerships
> > > > > > >> with WMTW and medical school in Taipai continue to translate
> > into
> > > > > > Chinese.
> > > > > > >> There the students translate and than their translations are
> > > > reviewed
> > > > > by
> > > > > > >> their profs before being posted. They translate in groups
> using
> > > > > hackpad
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > >> make it more social.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I am currently working to re invigorate the project :-)
> > > > > > >> James
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:51 AM, John Erling Blad <
> > > jeb...@gmail.com
> > > > >
> > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> > This discussion is going to be fun! =D
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > A little more than seventy Wikipedia-projects has more than
> > 65k
> > > > > > >> articles,
> > > > > > >> > the remaining two hundred or so are pretty small.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > What if a base set of articles were opened for paid
> > translators?
> > > > > There
> > > > > > >> are
> > > > > > >> > several lists of such base sets. We have both the thousand
> > > > articles
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > >> > "List of articles every Wikipedia should have"[1] and and
> the
> > > ten
> > > > > > >> thousand
> > > > > > >> > articles from the expanded list[2].
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > Lets say verified good translators was paid about $0.01 per
> > word
> > > > > > (about
> > > > > > >> $1
> > > > > > >> > for a 1k-article) for translating one of those articles into
> > > > another
> > > > > > >> > language, with perhaps a higher pay for contributors in
> > > high-cost
> > > > > > >> > countries. The pay would also have to be higher for
> languages
> > > that
> > > > > > lacks
> > > > > > >> > good translation tools.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > I believe this would be an _enabling_ activity for the
> > > > communities,
> > > > > as
> > > > > > >> > without a base set of articles it won't be possible to
> build a
> > > > > > >> community at
> > > > > > >> > all. By not paying for new articles, and only translating
> > > > > > >> well-referenced
> > > > > > >> > articles, some of the disputes in the communities could be
> > > > avoided.
> > > > > > >> Perhaps
> > > > > > >> > we should also identify good source articles, that would be
> a
> > > > help.
> > > > > > >> > Translated articles should be above some minimum size, but
> > they
> > > > does
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > >> > have to be full translations of the source article.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > A real problem is that our existing lists of good articles
> > other
> > > > > > >> projects
> > > > > > >> > should have is pretty much biased towards Western World, so
> > they
> > > > > need
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > >> lot
> > > > > > >> > of adjustments. Perhaps such a project would identify our
> > > inherit
> > > > > > bias?
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > [1]
> > > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have
> > > > > > >> > [2]
> > > > > > >> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_every_
> > > > > > >> > Wikipedia_should_have/Expanded
> > > > > > >> > _______________________________________________
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> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> --
> > > > > > >> James Heilman
> > > > > > >> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > > > >> _______________________________________________
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