We do need better tools to curate the existing articles, but that is not a
blocker for new ways to create and edit articles.

For example, what if we could simply select a sentence, create a query on
some search engine, and then have an ai-bot crawl the result to see if one
of the hits can be used as a source? Turned around, the ai-bot could check
the sentences in an article and flag those it can't verify, thus guiding
the editor to back those sentences with references. That would off-load the
bulk of the work on sourcing articles.

Just an idea.

On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 6:49 PM, Renée Bagslint <reneebagsl...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Does it make sense to have more articles in a language than can be curated
> by the volunteers who speak that language?  This has already happened on
> the Englisg-language Wikipedia where the five million articles have simply
> overwhelmed the capability of the few thousand active contributors to
> self-organise and curate -- for example, there are about one million
> articles without adequate sources, and thousands of unsourced BLP; there
> are copyvio cleanups that will not complete, if ever, before 2030.  An army
> of hand-coded bots is just about keeping on top of vandalism.  How does
> that scale to projects where the number of native speaker contributors is
> in the dozens rather than the thousands?
>
> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 4:17 PM, Vi to <vituzzu.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > (This thread is getting terribly interesting)
> >
> > I generally think Wikipedia should be a strictly non interfering observer
> > for various aspects, language included. I fear if a wiki tries to set a
> > model for a language it may be a model which doesn't represent the
> reality
> > of that language: small wikis are often monopolized by a few users.
> That's
> > not a fault per se but it may introduce a significant bias in linguistic
> > models used.
> >
> > About one of Amir's emails I think a "small" Wikipedia edition is sign
> of a
> > series of situations, one of the most common of is an endangered
> language.
> > While planning should differentiate between endangered and non endangered
> > language I think most of problems we have to face are related to
> languages
> > endangered at various levels.
> >
> > On a more practical and less ideological note, I should note that even
> > though I didn't run the numbers, I strongly suspect that translating
> 10,000
> > articles to 100 languages is considerably cheaper than teaching 7 billion
> > people English.
> >
> > I don't why but I tend to second your suspects :p
> >
> >
> > Vito
> >
> > 2018-02-27 16:53 GMT+01:00 Peter Southwood <peter.southw...@telkomsa.net
> >:
> >
> > > If the people creating the basic encyclopaedic terminology and style in
> > > the language are native speakers, then it would not be a thing imposed
> > from
> > > outside. It would be a development within the language, just like it
> was
> > > with the languages that already have encyclopaedias. The basic
> > > encyclopaedic terminology and style in languages that have then also
> had
> > to
> > > be created before it existed, it just happened earlier. Living
> languages
> > > evolve to deal with the realities of the present. Those which don’t,
> tend
> > > to die out as they become less useful. Cheers, Peter
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Vi to
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 1:43 PM
> > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Paid translation
> > >
> > > I see Amir's points, which are pretty reasonable, but I fear this would
> > > suit languages with a significant presence on the web.
> > >
> > > Among them I agree with points 1, 3 and 4 while I'm not sure about #2
> > > "creating basic encyclopedic terminology and style in that language",
> if
> > we
> > > want to preserve a language we shouldn't create a thing.
> > >
> > > By the way I was wondering my concerns about cultural colonization may
> be
> > > addressed -for wikis which has some contents (let's say at least 1000
> > > articles)- by starting expanding existing articles instead of
> translating
> > > new ones. This would solve the problem of choosing what to translate
> > though
> > > would leave problems about the perspective contents are created.
> > >
> > > Vito
> > >
> > > 2018-02-27 12:31 GMT+01:00 Amir E. Aharoni <
> amir.ahar...@mail.huji.ac.il
> > >:
> > >
> > > > 2018-02-27 13:00 GMT+02:00 mathieu stumpf guntz <
> > > > psychosl...@culture-libre.org>:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Le 24/02/2018 à 18:08, Vi to a écrit :
> > > > >
> > > > >> *finally I think paid translators would hardly turn into stable
> > > > >> Wikipedians.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I think this misses an important point that is, we don't need the
> > > > initial
> > > > > translator to turn into a sustaining editor, we need the article to
> > > > evolve
> > > > > with call to action incentives. And articles which don't exist at
> > > > > all – even as a stub – or don't meet an audience of potential
> > > > > contributors will never catch such an evolving cycle.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > This is one of the issues with what I alluded to in my earlier email
> > > > in this thread: the privilege that the "big" languages have. It's the
> > > > privilege of already having other encyclopedias, textbooks, public
> > > > education, etc., in this language. A lot of languages don't have
> these
> > > > things. When you speak a language that has had these things before
> > > > Wikipedia came along, it's hard to perceive the world like a person
> > > > who speaks a language that doesn't perceives it.
> > > >
> > > > If you define the purpose of paying somebody to translate as "turning
> > > > the paid translator" into a sustaining editor, then this is indeed
> > > > likely to fail.
> > > >
> > > > But if you define the purpose differently, it may succeed. For
> > > > example, you may define the purpose as one or more of the following:
> > > > * Demonstrating that it's possible to write an encyclopedia in that
> > > > language
> > > > * Creating basic encyclopedic terminology and style in that language
> > > > * Creating a bunch of basic articles that would appear in
> > > > interlanguage links in Wikipedias from bigger languages (English,
> > > > French, etc.)
> > > > * Creating a bunch of basic articles that would appear in search
> > > > results from internet search engines
> > > >
> > > > The existence of these things may bring in people who will become
> > > > volunteer sustaining editors.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Amir Elisha Aharoni · אָמִיר אֱלִישָׁע אַהֲרוֹנִי
> > > > http://aharoni.wordpress.com ‪“We're living in pieces, I want to
> live
> > > > in peace.” – T. Moore‬ ______________________________
> _________________
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