You are missing the whole point. I'm not talking about second guessing sources but rather changing our narrow point of views of what we consider sources of knowledge. A lot of cultures are of oral tradition and not written.
JP On Thu, May 10, 2018, 16:42 Todd Allen, <toddmal...@gmail.com> wrote: > Abandoning notability and verifiability is a wide open sign for spammers > and hoaxers. We have enough of that without giving them an engraved > invitation. > > If published sources are biased, the efforts to correct that should be made > at the source (literally) level. Just like rather than "disputing" a > reliable source, if we found evidence that contradicts them, we'd ask them > to correct, and then once they do we'll update the article accordingly > based on their correction. Wikipedia is not there to second-guess what > sources choose to publish or find "alternative" or "non-western" or > whatever else have you types of information. If our references are flawed, > the solution lies in getting them to correct what they're doing, not > "correcting" for any perceived bias by editors. We reflect sources, we do > not second-guess, dispute, or correct them. > > Todd > > On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 10:46 AM, Peter Southwood < > peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote: > > > When Wikipedia was new and unknown there were not so many people wanting > > to use it for purposes that conflict with our purposes. Times change. > > Cheers, > > Peter > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > > Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland > > Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2018 5:30 PM > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > > > If we where that septic at the beginning, we will never have started > > Wikipedia to begin with. Really, an encyclopedia written by anyone > without > > any authority to double check before it is published? It is doomed to > fail. > > Yes, in theory, but practice showed us otherwise. The question is not to > > remove notability and verifiability requirements, but to change those > > requirements to be more inclusive of different ways of sharing > knowledge. I > > think practice can show us otherwise in that case too if we are ready to > do > > that leap of faith, the same way we did at the beginning of Wikipedia > when > > we opened editing to anybody. > > > > JP > > > > On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 11:05 AM Peter Southwood < > > peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote: > > > > > One Jar'Edo Wens hoax is enough, and that lasted 10 years in spite of > > > notability and verifiability requirements, Without the verifiability > > > requirement it would probably still be there. Leaps of faith are > things > > > that I do not generally do, I am a natural sceptic and prefer evidence, > > and > > > where possible, reproducible results. When the evidence is intangible, > > the > > > authors must take responsibility for their work, and that means track > > > record and proof of identity. > > > This would be more easily fitted into a new project. I do not see it as > > > possible in Wikipedia. If the new project became recognised as a > reliable > > > source then Wikipedia could use it as a source, without destroying the > > > credibility we have. > > > Cheers, > > > Peter > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On > > > Behalf Of Gnangarra > > > Sent: 10 May 2018 15:50 > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > > > > > notability and verifiability are important, every culture and > language > > > has this issue when it comes to sharing knowledge. These culture > manage > > > successfully to share knowledge many of them long before the western > > styles > > > were developed, I'd say they are robust alternatives. The issue is how > > do > > > we bring these sources into the western system, how do we respect them, > > > how do we teach ourselves to understand that what we currently do is > not > > > the only. > > > > > > There are risks in potential abuses of every system, even our current > > > systems have their faults and we assume good faith in the citations > from > > > books published but no digital. Changing the way we consider and value > > > alternative knowledge streams will take a leap of faith, the question > is > > do > > > we really want to take that leap, do we really want to share the sum of > > all > > > knowledge, do we want to address inherent bias in our current knowledge > > > networks or are we comfortable with just token efforts. > > > > > > Maybe the solution isnt in incorporating directly into the wikipedia > but > > > rather the creation of new project to bring forth these alternative > > > knowledge streams > > > > > > > > > On 10 May 2018 at 21:47, Eduardo Testart <etest...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > I posted this a while ago, an investigation on gender bias where a > > member > > > > of Wikimedia Chile was involved, in his personal capacity though: > > > > https://epjdatascience.springeropen.com/articles/10. > > > > 1140/epjds/s13688-016-0066-4 > > > > > > > > There are many things that can be addressed individually and as a > > > movement > > > > or collective, if we believe the conclusions are valid, which I > > > personally > > > > do, since they are supported with data and not on our personal > > > impressions. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > > > El jue., may. 10, 2018 10:27, Peter Southwood < > > > > peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> > > > > escribió: > > > > > > > > > Notability and verifiability are important. They allow us to > produce > > > > > reasonably reliable work. Moving away from those constraints opens > > the > > > > > doors to extremely unreliable material. If Wikipedia is to remain > > open > > > to > > > > > anyone to edit, there do not appear to be any robust alternatives. > > > Other > > > > > projects may work around this problem, but would then probably not > be > > > > open > > > > > for anyone to edit. Or can you suggest another way? > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] > > On > > > > > Behalf Of Jean-Philippe Béland > > > > > Sent: 10 May 2018 15:01 > > > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > > > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > > > > > > > > > "Nothing odd, it's baked in: Wikipedia is a summary of the canon of > > > > > knowledge, the corpus of generally accepted knowledge." > > > > > > > > > > But it is what we accept as part of the canon of "knowledge" as > > > Wikipedia > > > > > that could be improved. We have a very western approach to that > > saying > > > > that > > > > > it needs to be published in such books or journals to be notable > > > enough, > > > > > when different cultures use different ways to build their canon of > > > > > knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > JP > > > > > User:Amqui > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 5:53 AM FRED BAUDER < > fredb...@fairpoint.net> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: Jane Darnell <jane...@gmail.com> > > > > > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > > > > > > Sent: Thu, 10 May 2018 04:02:46 -0400 (EDT) > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Gendergap approach causing problems > > > > > > > > > > > > ...because of our rules regarding references. Oddly, > > > > > > Wikipedia can at best only echo the systemic bias, but will never > > be > > > > able > > > > > > to correct it." > > > > > > > > > > > > Nothing odd, it's baked in: Wikipedia is a summary of the canon > of > > > > > > knowledge, the corpus of generally accepted knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > The knowledge industry could do better. And when it does, > Wikipedia > > > > will > > > > > > reflect that. in the meantime it is helpful if gender and other > > bias > > > > > issues > > > > > > are noted and accommodated. Our mission is more modest than full > > > > > correction > > > > > > of all bias, but we can contribute or even lead. > > > > > > > > > > > > Fred > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > > Unsubscribe: > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject= > > unsubscribe> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > > > > > http://www.avg.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/ > > mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org > ?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > GN. > > > Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page > > > WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra > > > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com > > > Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), *Never Again: > > > Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8*, UWAP, 2017. > > > Order > > > here > > > < > > > https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again- > > reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8 > > > > > > > . > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
