Hi David,

I just repeated the formulation of James's proposal (our messages crossed,
I did not react to your message).

Concerning your earlier question on whether "people getting money to learn
to listen" would work - well, it might. But than these people should be
clearly distinguished from the rest of the community and might not create
content, at least not with their special accounts. (I already explained why
I think paying people to create content is a bad idea, and why having
people in the community who are paid alongside with these who are doing the
same job and are not paid is a bad idea). This is, as far as I understand
it, the idea of the WMF community engagement team (in particular, community
health). However, whereas in principle it might work, I do not see how it
could be scaled up - you need people speaking several dozens of languages,
and who are professionally qualified. And I also agree that whereas there
are clearly things which are not healthy in the community, large-scale
psychoterapy is not what we should and can provide. If people are engaged
to the point that they get addicted and need some rehabilitation, they
should disengage (and possibly even forcibly be disengaged, as happened to
one recently globally banned user who meant well but was unable to stop)
and seek professional assistance outside Wikimedia movement. Wikimedia is
about creating free content and propagating free knowledge, it is not about
making friends, creating social networks, or getting the hobbies monetized.
(To be clear, I do not imply at all that you have these intentions or need
rehabilitation or smth, but the sentiment repeats much too often).

Cheers
Yaroslav

On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 9:28 AM, David Cuenca Tudela <dacu...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Yaroslav,
> what do you mean by people working at the front? Do you mean that you would
> like some leadership in the movement?
> (understanding leadership as the capacity to listen to many voices, and
> challenge them)
>
> I never heard of any company where there are rotations of people who
> matter... in fact it is quite the opposite:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employee_retention
>
> Why do you feel that rotations are necessary? And wouldn't be the loss
> greater than the gain?
>
> Cheers,
> Micru
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 9:00 PM Yaroslav Blanter <ymb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Actually, concerning the group of people working "at the front" might
> work
> > (as soon as it is not just about the support of the English Wikipedia),
> and
> > I would not count sending them to Wikimania as a monetary reward -
> assuming
> > this group undergoes regular rotations, and people who stop working leave
> > the group.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Yaroslav
> >
> > On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 8:18 PM, Anders Wennersten <
> > m...@anderswennersten.se
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > James, I think you yourself earlier today put forwards a possible first
> > > step in this direction.
> > >
> > > Support a group of people working "at the front" in neutralizing paid
> > > editing and other bad editing, by giving them possiblity to meet IRL,
> and
> > > why not at a session commited to this issue at WIkimania?
> > >
> > > Anders
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Den 2018-06-10 kl. 20:09, skrev James Heilman:
> > >
> > >> There is a fair bit of literature on intrinsic versus extrinsic
> > >> motivation.
> > >> Wikipedia has been mostly built on the first. Introducing greater
> > >> extrinsic
> > >> motivation may decrease intrinsic motivation. Doing so should thus be
> > done
> > >> with great care, at a small scale that can be reversed, and be well
> > >> studied
> > >> to make sure the positive outweigh the negatives before being
> expanded.
> > >> Not
> > >> saying we should not look at this just that it may not result in the
> > >> benefits we hope far. With respect to burn out, emergency physicians
> are
> > >> generally paid well yet over half are experiencing burnout.
> > >> https://wire.ama-assn.org/life-career/report-reveals-severit
> > >> y-burnout-specialty
> > >>
> > >> James
> > >>
> > >> On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 11:45 AM, Yaroslav Blanter <ymb...@gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Hi David,
> > >>>
> > >>> Well, I did not reply because I disagree but in my experience having
> > long
> > >>> arguments with people one disagrees with usually does not lead to
> > >>> agreement
> > >>> and is also very tiring. You gave your opinion, I gave mine, it is up
> > to
> > >>> other readers to decide whose arguments are stronger. I really hate
> > this
> > >>> "last word" game. If Natacha did not raise exactly the same argument
> > >>> again,
> > >>> I would not even respond.
> > >>>
> > >>> Concerning people who do the job and do not feel appreciated - I
> > >>> absolutely
> > >>> agree with you that they should be rewarded. The appreciation can
> come
> > >>> from
> > >>> both the community and the WMF (and possibly sometimes from the
> > external
> > >>> parties). I just disagree that this appreciation should be monetary.
> > >>> There
> > >>> are many ways to reward people and at the same to avoid introducing
> > >>> additional factors which I believe are harmful for the community.
> > >>>
> > >>> Concerning the premise that the existed model does not work anymore
> - I
> > >>> just disagree with the premise. Indeed, we have for example burnout
> of
> > >>> volunteers - I myself resigned the admin tools in the English
> Wikipedia
> > >>> in
> > >>> January, and stopped editing for a month in February, after the
> > community
> > >>> failed to do anything about long-term harassment of a certain user
> > >>> directed
> > >>> at me - but this unfortunately happened before and will happen later.
> > >>> Specifically concerning the administrator issue, in the English
> > >>> Wikipedia I
> > >>> would still like to see any evidence that there is work which
> requires
> > an
> > >>> admin attention and does not get it. All backlogs I am aware of
> > originate
> > >>> not because administrators are lazy or there are too few of them, but
> > >>> because things are being asked are not submitted to a right place -
> > such
> > >>> as
> > >>> for example someone asking to resolve a long-standing content dispute
> > >>> claiming it is vandalism.
> > >>>
> > >>> Cheers
> > >>> Yaroslav
> > >>>
> > >>> On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 7:21 PM, David Cuenca Tudela <
> > dacu...@gmail.com>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Yaroslav,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Yes, you already made your point earlier, and I addressed it here
> [1]
> > >>>> and
> > >>>> also in the draft proposal to enable some volunteers to receive
> > >>>> donations
> > >>>> for their work [2]. The fact that you neither commented on my reply
> to
> > >>>>
> > >>> your
> > >>>
> > >>>> initial concern, nor on the proposal suggests me several
> > possibilities.
> > >>>>
> > >>> The
> > >>>
> > >>>> first one is that you are not listening to me [3], because you are
> not
> > >>>> interacting with the proposals that could counter your fears, and
> you
> > >>>> are
> > >>>> not asking questions about them. The second one is that you don't
> > trust
> > >>>> your own capacity to listen to other people even when money is
> > involved.
> > >>>> That could also be, because people with the biggest fear that others
> > do
> > >>>>
> > >>> not
> > >>>
> > >>>> listen to them are indeed not well equiped to listen to other
> people.
> > >>>> And
> > >>>> the third one could be that you are a victim of your own
> observations,
> > >>>>
> > >>> you
> > >>>
> > >>>> might be so used to see white swans (people being paid not
> listening)
> > in
> > >>>> your life that the mere idea that black swans (people being paid who
> > >>>> listen) exist might seem inconceibable for you. It could also be
> that
> > >>>> you
> > >>>> find something wrong or that could be done better in my proposal or
> > that
> > >>>> you have a better one, but since you haven't voiced your opinion, I
> > >>>> don't
> > >>>> know what.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Concerning time and motivation, I consider that the people who are
> > >>>> contributing during their official working hours without explicit
> > >>>>
> > >>> permision
> > >>>
> > >>>> to do so are effectively STEALING resources from their employer.
> This
> > is
> > >>>>
> > >>> of
> > >>>
> > >>>> course a partial view, because who owns actually the planetary
> > >>>> resources?
> > >>>> And who is there to say that it is not reasonable to invest some in
> > >>>> Wikimedia projects? Although I understand and I feel empathy for the
> > >>>> volunteers that Bodhisattwa mentions, I feel that what Aubrey said
> > >>>> before
> > >>>> holds true here: "You can't do good if there's no "you" in the first
> > >>>> place". So if I ever meet people like that I will tell them: you are
> > not
> > >>>> doing any good here, because you are not putting yourself first.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> You say that "we indeed have a lot of people who shout loud, do very
> > >>>> little, and get all kinds of credits for the work others have done".
> > But
> > >>>>
> > >>> we
> > >>>
> > >>>> also have many people who speak quietly, do very much, and get no
> > credit
> > >>>> for what they are doing, and I do not see harm in recognizing their
> > work
> > >>>> with donations, specially if they commit to improve themselves and
> to
> > >>>> listen. You don't explain why you don't like people who listen and
> who
> > >>>>
> > >>> get
> > >>>
> > >>>> donations. Tbh, I do not like to have slaves in our movement, and I
> > >>>> think
> > >>>> we should free them from this kind of ungrateful slavery that many
> > seem
> > >>>>
> > >>> to
> > >>>
> > >>>> be very happy about. At least slaves got some food, and a place to
> > >>>> sleep.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> And also listen to what Anders is saying, our model is not working
> any
> > >>>>
> > >>> more
> > >>>
> > >>>> (it was not sustainable to start with), we have reached the limit,
> and
> > >>>>
> > >>> now
> > >>>
> > >>>> it is time to reinvent ourselves. And as far as I know most of us
> here
> > >>>>
> > >>> are
> > >>>
> > >>>> "bottom", so we are building "bottom-up".
> > >>>>
> > >>>> @Aubrey: Thanks for your long answer :) I'll address it later on, to
> > >>>>
> > >>> write
> > >>>
> > >>>> this email took me at least 5h of coming to the keyboard and leaving
> > to
> > >>>> manage the stress. I hope a reply to your email takes me a bit
> less...
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Regards,
> > >>>> Micru
> > >>>>
> > >>>> [1] https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2018-
> > >>>>
> > >>> May/090365.html
> > >>>
> > >>>> [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Micru/Draft_RFC
> > >>>> [3]
> > >>>> https://www.csh.umn.edu/education/focus-areas/whole-
> > >>>> systems-healing/leadership/deep-listening
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > >>>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > >>>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > >>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > >>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> > ,
> > >>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=
> unsubscribe>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > >>> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > >>> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > >>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > >>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
> mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > >>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik
> > > i/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
>
> --
> Etiamsi omnes, ego non
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
<mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>

Reply via email to