Hi Ariel, Denny, and Wikimedians, I sent this at noon today, but it didn't go through to this email address, so am re-sending now from here.
Suggestions about how these email lists might work differently? Best, Scott Scott MacLeod <worlduniversityandsch...@gmail.com> 12:01 PM (5 hours ago) to Wikimedia Thanks, Ariel, Denny, and Wikimedians, Re your observations, I wonder, conceptually, if the end-to-end Translation approach of Google Translate would render what you suggest, Ariel (e.g. someone could translate an article from a language Wikipedia and this would produce a single translation i.e. "one article for all audiences"), whereas developing, conceptually, a different translator approach - i.e. from Language A to Language B - conceptually, and perhaps building such a hypothetical translator from Wikidata's Lexicographical project, could yield "information depending on their role in the communities of the speakers of a given language" (leaving aside the Wikimedia's ContentTranslation project at this stage). And I wonder re 1), Denny and Ariel, beyond cultural contexts / differences / borders, and your Portugal and Brazil example, whether one might add in a country approach as well. Re 2 & 3) I wonder what role interpretation plays in writing a NPOV article in any given language, and vis-a-vis Abstract Wikipedia too, and how these NPOV interpretations offer benefits in their great diversity (in terms of Wikipedia's goal: "to build a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge"), and the benefits of "displaying the local articles whenever available" for inter-lingual knowledge-generation. Thanks for the very thoughtful questions and responses. Cheers, Scott On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 5:25 PM Denny Vrandečić <vrande...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Ariel, > > thanks for the very thoughtful question. I got asked this question every > time I present it, and during the Blue Sky presentation this question - or > a variation of it - was asked three times. It really is on top of people's > mind! > > My answer is half inconsistent, I am afraid, because I have by now come up > with three ways to answer this question, and they contradict each other. So > I am glad to hear more thoughts on it. > > Here are the three answers: > > 1) I think that language is a pretty bad delimiter to keep points of view > apart. Yes, sure, it allows the Japanese Wikipedia to offer a different > description of World War 2 than the Korean Wikipedia has, but I am not sure > that is entirely a good thing. We don't have two Wikipedias for Portugal > and Brazil, they have to agree and what they say, but we have Wikipedias in > Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian, Serbocroatian... and I am not sure that the > outcome of this decision is fully positive. So, my main point is, if we > really want to capture cultural differences, let's align the borders of the > editions of Wikipedia along these cultures. But aligning the cultural > borders solely along language borders is badly imperfect. > > 2) But in general, I think that accepting that different Wikipedias should > have different contents are incompatible with our NPOV policy. Now we could > have a lengthy discussion whether NPOV is a good policy or not. But in > general, I'd really prefer to have all points of views being presented with > their due weight in all languages, instead of using languages to represent > a point of view only in one language, and have a different point of view in > another language. I would love to be able to read both the Japanese and the > Korean point of view on contentious issues between these two countries - as > I can in Serbian and Croatian, because I can read both languages just fine > - but I think it is rather problematic that language barriers dictate the > point of view I have access to. In fact, in many cases, we can see in the > English speaking Wikipedia how the very same editors from the say Croatian > and Serbian Wikipedia come to a more balanced result in the English > Wikipedia, which they wouldn't accept in their 'home' Wikipedias. Funny, > isn't it? > > 3) More importantly, and entirely disagreeing with #1 and #2, is that the > Abstract Wikipedia never suggests to replace the current language editions, > but to fill up the gaps in any given language edition. So, if the Croatian > Wikipedia really wants to go into details on Croatian folk songs and > Croatian food items, they should be totally able to do so without having to > feel bad that they might be missing basic information about South American > countries and Australian Aboriginal cultures. In fact, what I hope is that > each language edition can choose to display the renderings from the > Abstract Wikipedia for most articles, and then they can concentrate on > creating in-depth articles on the topics they really care about - local > cities, cultures, traditions. I remember in the beginning when working on > the Croatian Wikipedia - it feels weird to work on the article about a > local dish if you're still missing articles on all chemical elements. How > can I write an article about the town my mom lives in (pop. 148) if there > is no article yet about the country of Mexico? The abstract Wikipedia has > the ability to lessen that pressure and allow the local communities to > focus on their interests more. > > I assume that the solution that combines the three answers is that we will > display the local articles whenever available, but be able to take a look > at the article rendered from the abstract version (for contrast and > comparison and maintenance). And if there is no local article, we would > treat the article rendered from the abstract version like a proper article. > > So, as said, the actual answer to your question is still work in progress, > but I wanted to write down a first sketch towards the answer. I am also > very happy to hear other people thoughts on this question. But all in all I > think that going toward an Abstract Wikipedia will improve along all the > dimensions discussed. But I am sure I missed important dimensions on this > question. > > Cheers, > Denny > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 11:15 PM Ariel Glenn WMF <ar...@wikimedia.org> > wrote: > > > I want to add a caution about the idea of translating one article for all > > audiences. Even articles on some plants or animals will contain different > > information depending on their role in the communities of the speakers > of a > > given language; how much more will articles about some politician or a > > religious custom vary depending on the presumed cultural context of the > > community of readers? Even sources vary according to the language of the > > project, with sources in the project language preferred for ease of > > verifiability. One of the strengths of multi-language Wikipedia is this > > very concept of a topic being presented in a fashion that is suitable to > > different communities of readers, and the language of the text is only > one > > part of that. > > > > On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 8:40 AM Leila Zia <le...@wikimedia.org> wrote: > > > > > Denny, thanks for writing and rewriting this piece. I finally got a > > chance > > > to go through it end-to-end. Challenge accepted! :) > > > > > > Here are a few early thoughts, and I look forward to discussing it with > > you > > > and others further. > > > > > > * I tend to agree with you that the challenges of artificial > intelligence > > > are a superset of the challenges of bringing to life the abstract > > > Wikipedia. Quite a few items you list in "Unique advantages" section > make > > > the abstract-Wikipedia space more easily approachable. > > > > > > * I agree with you that if we are to take the content of Wikipedia to > > many > > > of the languages spoken in the world today, and engage their speakers > to > > > share in, the current model won't work/scale (at least soon enough). > > > > > > * You've raised a great point about "Graceful degradation". A very nice > > > challenge. > > > > > > * In "Unique advantages" you talk about "a single genre of text, > > > encyclopedias" and I wonder what it takes to expand our thinking to > > include > > > images as well. Will we need to rethink your current construct? > Including > > > images is attractive for at least two reasons: Because in terms of > > learning > > > people have different needs and we will likely need to (continue to) > > > include images as we create the abstractions, but also because one can > > > potentially think of images as representations that are already > abstract. > > > > > > Best, > > > Leila > > > > > > -- > > > Leila Zia > > > Senior Research Scientist, Lead > > > Wikimedia Foundation > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 10:13 AM Dariusz Jemielniak <dar...@alk.edu.pl > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > an interesting concept indeed! > > > > > > > > dj > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 5:36 PM Denny Vrandečić <vrande...@gmail.com > > > > <mailto:vrande...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > The extended whitepaper that was presented at the DL workshop is now > > > > available here: > > > > > > > > http://simia.net/download/abstractwikipedia_whitepaper.pdf > > > > > > > > Still not a proper scientific paper (no references, notv situated in > > > > related work), but going into a bit more detail on the ideas on the > > first > > > > paper published previously. > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 29, 2018, 11:32 Denny Vrandečić <vrande...@gmail.com > > <mailto: > > > > vrande...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Semantic Web languages allow to express ontologies and knowledge > > bases > > > in > > > > > a way meant to be particularly amenable to the Web. Ontologies > > > formalize > > > > > the shared understanding of a domain. But the most expressive and > > > > > widespread languages that we know of are human natural languages, > and > > > the > > > > > largest knowledge base we have is the wealth of text written in > human > > > > > languages. > > > > > > > > > > We looks for a path to bridge the gap between knowledge > > representation > > > > > languages such as OWL and human natural languages such as English. > We > > > > > propose a project to simultaneously expose that gap, allow to > > > collaborate > > > > > on closing it, make progress widely visible, and is highly > attractive > > > and > > > > > valuable in its own right: a Wikipedia written in an abstract > > language > > > to > > > > > be rendered into any natural language on request. This would make > > > current > > > > > Wikipedia editors about 100x more productive, and increase the > > content > > > of > > > > > Wikipedia by 10x. For billions of users this will unlock knowledge > > they > > > > > currently do not have access to. > > > > > > > > > > My first talk on this topic will be on October 10, 2018, > 16:45-17:00, > > > at > > > > > the Asilomar in Monterey, CA during the Blue Sky track of ISWC. My > > > > second, > > > > > longer talk on the topic will be at the DL workshop in Tempe, AZ, > > > October > > > > > 27-29. Comments are very welcome as I prepare the slides and the > > talk. > > > > > > > > > > Link to the paper: http://simia.net/download/abstractwikipedia.pdf > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Denny > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > New messages to: Wikimediaemail@example.com<mailto: > > > > Wikimediafirstname.lastname@example.org> > > > > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org<mailto: > > > > wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org>?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > ________________________________________________________ > > > > [http://crow.kozminski.edu.pl/minds.jpg]< > > http://nerds.kozminski.edu.pl/> > > > > prof. dr hab. Dariusz Jemielniak > > > > kierownik katedry MINDS (Management in Networked and Digital > Societies) > > > > Akademia Leona Koźmińskiego > > > > http://NeRDS.kozminski.edu.pl <http://nerds.kozminski.edu.pl/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ostatnie artykuły: > > > > > > > > * Dariusz Jemielniak, Maciej Wilamowski (2017) Cultural > Diversity > > of > > > > Quality of Information on Wikipedias< > > > > http://crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/cultures%20of%20wikipedias.pdf> > > > > Journal of the Association for Information Science and Technology 68: > > > 10. > > > > 2460–2470. > > > > * Dariusz Jemielniak (2016) Wikimedia Movement Governance: The > > > Limits > > > > of A-Hierarchical Organization< > > > > http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/wikimedia_governance.pdf> > > > Journal > > > > of Organizational Change Management 29: 3. 361-378. > > > > * Dariusz Jemielniak, Eduard Aibar (2016) Bridging the Gap > Between > > > > Wikipedia and Academia< > > > > http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/bridging.pdf> Journal of the > > > > Association for Information Science and Technology 67: 7. > 1773-1776. > > > > * Dariusz Jemielniak (2016) Breaking the Glass Ceiling on > > Wikipedia< > > > > http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/glass-ceiling.pdf> Feminist > > > > Review 113: 1. 103-108. > > > > * Tadeusz Chełkowski, Peter Gloor, Dariusz Jemielniak (2016) > > > > Inequalities in Open Source Software Development: Analysis of > > > Contributor’s > > > > Commits in Apache Software Foundation Projects< > > > > > > > > > > http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/asset?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0152976.PDF > > > >, > > > > PLoS ONE 11: 4. e0152976. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > New messages to: Wikimediaemail@example.com > > > > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > New messages to: Wikimediafirstname.lastname@example.org > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > New messages to: Wikimediaemail@example.com > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimediafirstname.lastname@example.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> -- -- - Scott MacLeod - Founder & President - https://twitter.com/WorldUnivAndSch - World University and School - http://worlduniversityandschool.org - http://scottmacleod.com - CC World University and School - like CC Wikipedia with best STEM-centric CC OpenCourseWare - incorporated as a nonprofit university and school in California, and is a U.S. 501 (c) (3) tax-exempt educational organization. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimediaemail@example.com Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>