There are many subjects of images that can be objectively assessed, so this 
comparison is not very accurate. In many cases the metadata provides verifiable 
information too.
Cheers,
P

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Jennifer Pryor-Summers
Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2019 1:15 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Supporting Wikinews [was: Reviewing our brand system 
for our 2030 goals]

Yaroslav

I think you have identified an important point -- I hestitate to call it a
problem -- about Commons.  We are dependent on the authority of the
uploader of an image, say, to say what it is an image of.  If they say it
is a certain locality, or object, we have to take their word for it (or
not, of course).  That doesn't fit too well with the requirement on other
projects for citation of reliable independent sources.

Jennifer

On Sat, Apr 27, 2019 at 11:34 AM Yaroslav Blanter <ymb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Ziko,
>
> you could then argue that Commons is also not a collaborative project -
> only one person takes a picture (determines the story, the position, light
> etc), and others can at best perform some editing or add/remove categories.
>
> Cheers
> Yaroslav
>
> On Sat, Apr 27, 2019 at 11:29 AM Ziko van Dijk <zvand...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello Philippe,
> >
> > Thank you for your points to which I generally can agree. Because this
> > is an important matter to my, allow me to explain what I exactly mean.
> >
> > Of course, there are several tasks or layers where people can (and do)
> > collaborate when working on journalistic content. But there is an
> > aspect where the collaboration cannot be a collaboration of equals
> > (which is necessary for the definition of what a wiki is).
> >
> > Imagine that reporter-editor P. has witnessed a speech of the mayor
> > and reports about it, calling it e.g. "enthusiast".
> > Stay-at-home-editor Z. reads this report and changes the word to
> > "euphoric". P. then protests and changes it back, claiming that he has
> > been there and knows better. So P. and Z. didn't have the same access
> > to the world that has to be described.
> >
> > That would be different in the case that P. and Z. only work on
> > material such as press releases and content from news agencies. I
> > believe that Andrew meant this kind of work when he wrote that we
> > don't need (another) website offering this.
> >
> > Another example for content unsuitable for
> > wiki-collaboration-among-equals is an autobiography. An autobiography
> > by definition is a personal account of what someone has experienced in
> > her life. No other person has the same world access. Other people in a
> > wiki can check the text for inconsistencies, orthography, structure
> > etc. (Great.) But the person of the autobiography has always a veto
> > right - otherwise, it wouldn't be an autobiography.
> >
> > An interesting question is whether fiction is suitable for
> > collaboration (and what kind of collaboration), but that would go to
> > far here.
> >
> > Kind regards
> > Ziko
> >
> > Am Fr., 26. Apr. 2019 um 18:26 Uhr schrieb Philippe Beaudette
> > <phili...@beaudette.me>:
> > >
> > > Respectfully Disagree. They can formulate questions, coordinate and
> fact
> > > check answers... and that’s off the top of my head.
> > >
> > > That said I think wikinews is fundamentally not one is our success
> > stories,
> > > but I don’t agree with what my friend Ziko said there. There are many
> > roles
> > > for community there.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 9:15 AM Ziko van Dijk <zvand...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hello,
> > > >
> > > > One of the central problems of Wikinews is that the content is not
> > > > suitable for collaboration.
> > > >
> > > > Content suitable for collaboration is related to a reality to which
> > > > the collaborators equally have access. Think if an encyclopedia based
> > > > on scholarly literature that (potentially) everybody can find in a
> > > > library.
> > > >
> > > > When a journalist has spoken to her 'sources' (relevant people), she
> > > > is the one who had a special access to theses sources. The editors in
> > > > the wiki did not have this access. They can correct typos but do
> > > > little more.
> > > >
> > > > Kind regards
> > > > Ziko
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Am Fr., 26. Apr. 2019 um 00:43 Uhr schrieb Philippe Beaudette
> > > > <phili...@beaudette.me>:
> > > > >
> > > > > The very smart Mr. Lih sayeth:
> > > > >
> > > > > I have been a fan of the times Wikinews did original interviews
> with
> > > > > notable folks [1] so this is perhaps a sustainable niche. But as a
> > direct
> > > > > news wire competitor to AP, Reuters or AFP, no.
> > > > >
> > > > > [1]
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
> https://en.m.wikinews.org/wiki/Shimon_Peres_discusses_the_future_of_Israel
> > > > >
> > > > > Me too.  In fact, I think this is something that Wikinews has
> always
> > done
> > > > > very well.  It also strikes me as an excellent, and quite
> > functional, use
> > > > > for a Wiki.  A wikivoices or wiki-interviews type project would be
> a
> > fine
> > > > > addition to the ecosystem, imho.  And it is very reasonable to
> think
> > that
> > > > > given its success in this area, Wikinews could very easily pivot to
> > fill
> > > > > that spot.
> > > > >
> > > > > But a news competitor to traditional news outlets?  Nope, that it
> > isn't.
> > > > >
> > > > > Philippe
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 4:05 PM Andrew Lih <andrew....@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 4:23 PM Jennifer Pryor-Summers <
> > > > > > jennifer.pryorsumm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Andrew
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It seems to me that you're saying that, on the one hand, the
> > policies
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > make Wikipedia work well as an encyclopaedia (NOR, RS, V,
> NORUSH)
> > > > are a
> > > > > > > poor fit for a news-gathering operation and on the other hand,
> > > > Wikipedia
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > a success as a news-gathering operation.  These seem
> > inconsistent to
> > > > me.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As Wikimedians we are secondary source news summarizers rather
> than
> > > > primary
> > > > > > source news gatherers. That’s where the difference lies
> primarily.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have been a fan of the times Wikinews did original interviews
> > with
> > > > > > notable folks [1] so this is perhaps a sustainable niche. But as
> a
> > > > direct
> > > > > > news wire competitor to AP, Reuters or AFP, no.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [1]
> > > > > >
> > > >
> >
> https://en.m.wikinews.org/wiki/Shimon_Peres_discusses_the_future_of_Israel
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > However, I conclude from what you're saying that the best way
> > > > forward is
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > fold the Wikinews operation into Wikipedia.  Is that right?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Fold Wikinews altogether so it doesn’t confuse the public.
> > Wikipedia
> > > > > > editors are already doing a stellar job.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Andrew
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 8:15 PM Andrew Lih <
> andrew....@gmail.com
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 2:27 PM Jennifer Pryor-Summers <
> > > > > > > > jennifer.pryorsumm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Wikinews may not be doing too well, but (English-language)
> > > > Wikipedia
> > > > > > > > seems
> > > > > > > > > to have taken up a news-gathering role not entirely
> > consistent
> > > > with
> > > > > > its
> > > > > > > > > encyclopediac mission: perhaps that's the reason.  Maybe
> the
> > WMF
> > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > sort out the demarcation issues.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Jennifer,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This has been a topic of discussion for more than a decade
> and
> > the
> > > > vast
> > > > > > > > majority of the community has converged on the conclusion
> that
> > > > Wikinews
> > > > > > > > hasn't and won't ever work at any scale given its fundamental
> > > > > > properties.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > News is often described as "the best obtainable version of
> the
> > > > truth
> > > > > > > given
> > > > > > > > the constraints of a deadline." News depends on memorializing
> > > > direct
> > > > > > > > observation at a point in time. Therefore, the following
> > policies
> > > > that
> > > > > > > make
> > > > > > > > Wikipedia work are a bad fit for original, deadline
> reporting:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Wikipedia:NOR - no original research
> > > > > > > > Wikipedia:RS - requirement for reliable sources
> > > > > > > > Wikipedia:V - verifiability
> > > > > > > > Wikipedia:NORUSH - there is no deadline/eventualism
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Most anyone who tries Wikinews first hand will experience
> this
> > > > mismatch
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > realize it is a poor fit.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > However, rather than lament why Wikinews doesn't work, we
> > should
> > > > > > > celebrate
> > > > > > > > the fact that we have found a better mode: entries that
> evolve
> > > > minute
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > minute (oftentimes second to second) to best reflect the
> world
> > as
> > > > we
> > > > > > know
> > > > > > > > it. Embrace that new, live, constantly updated snapshot of
> > reality
> > > > –
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > Wikipedia article.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you want to see some of the earlier debates about the
> > origins of
> > > > > > > > Wikinews, October 2004 is a good place to look:
> > > > > > > > [1]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> >
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2004-October/thread.html
> > > > > > > > [2]
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> >
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2004-October/061017.html
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -Andrew
> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > -Andrew Lih
> > > > > > Author of The Wikipedia Revolution
> > > > > > US National Archives Citizen Archivist of the Year (2016)
> > > > > > Knight Foundation grant recipient - Wikipedia Space (2015)
> > > > > > Wikimedia DC - Outreach and GLAM
> > > > > > Previously: professor of journalism and communications, American
> > > > > > University, Columbia University, USC
> > > > > > ---
> > > > > > Email: and...@andrewlih.com
> > > > > > WEB: https://muckrack.com/fuzheado
> > > > > > PROJECT: Wikipedia Space:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:WPSPACE
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > --
> > > Philippe Beaudette
> > > phili...@beaudette.me
> > > _______________________________________________
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