I really think that the main problem here is not automation but the problem
Asaf pointed out: A small circle of people dictating the rules and who's
allowed to participate and who isn't. Automation just perpetuates the cycle
of those same people being in control of those processes.

On Mon, 13 May 2019 at 17:08, Samuel Klein <meta...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I love this thread.  Thank you to all participating in it...
>
> Also: speeding these things with automation is also much easier once there
> is a quarantine where anyone can see flagged material without being an
> admin!   SJ
>
> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 7:39 AM John Erling Blad <jeb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > This is wrong: "The upload system allow you to upload something if you
> > are the author. Period."
> >
> > The system as it is now will allow anyone to upload a file given (s)he
> > has the necessary rights. That does not imply the uploader being the
> > author of the material.
> >
> > Note that verifying whether the uploaded material already exist out on
> > the web must be done before the file is made public, otherwise any
> > attempt on detecting a copyviolation will fail. That would imply that
> > a copyvio algorithm must be automated. The questionable material could
> > still be uploaded, but then a permission should be forwarded to OTRS.
> > Also, a report from the copyvio algorithm should be stored with the
> > uploaded material, as it is impossible to retrace the detection after
> > the material is made public.
> >
> > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 4:23 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga
> > <galder...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > As I am the author of the post, some remarks:
> > >
> > >   *   Commons is, indeed, the only [cloud] storage for file in most of
> > the Wikipedias. Making an accusation of using Commons as a storage place
> is
> > unfair and nonsense.
> > >   *   Communication could be better, of course, but we don't have to
> > think on experienced editors and wikimedians, but on people we are trying
> > to convince to upload to the Commons and find this burden. They don't
> know
> > how to communicate and why they must do it.
> > >   *   The upload system allow you to upload something if you are the
> > author. Period.
> > >   *   Claiming that something is a derivative work without saying which
> > is the original work is not a good practice.
> > >   *   Of course, commons volunteers are few, and they have a great
> > job-queue. But outreach volunteers are less, and a project like this can
> > take a whole year of volunteer work.
> > >   *   After all the victim-blaming seen on this discussion no one was
> > able to point to a page where the procedure was clear for everyone.
> > >
> > > Let's hope we can follow with this project next year and we will have
> > less problems.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > Galder
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Wikimedia-l <wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org> on behalf
> > of Vi to <vituzzu.w...@gmail.com>
> > > Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2019 3:35 PM
> > > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach
> > >
> > > I wonder wheter local sysops could be allowed to delete/undelete images
> > on
> > > commons in order to reduce workload. Most risky commons' uploads come
> > from
> > > cw-upload, allow local sysops to handle them could work.
> > >
> > > Vito
> > >
> > > Il giorno dom 12 mag 2019 alle ore 15:31 James Heilman <
> jmh...@gmail.com
> > >
> > > ha scritto:
> > >
> > > > It is hard to get the admin bit there aswell. Is Commons interested
> in
> > > > having more admins?
> > > >
> > > > James
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 5:41 AM Fæ <fae...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > A couple of years ago a proposed project was for the WMF to pay for
> > > > > access to the Google image matching API access so we could run a
> > > > > copyvio bot on the live new uploads list. Such a bot would not be
> > > > > terribly hard to get working, and would be a great experiment to
> see
> > > > > if this aspect of the more boring side of sysop tools could be
> > > > > reduced.[1]
> > > > >
> > > > > Not specifically advocating auto-deletion, but daily housekeeping
> > > > > image matches to highly likely copyrighted categories would make
> mass
> > > > > housekeeping very easy.
> > > > >
> > > > > A separate old chestnut was my proposal to introduce systemic image
> > > > > hashes, which neatly show "close" image matches.[2] With a Commons
> > hat
> > > > > on, such a project would be of far more immediate pragmatic use
> than
> > > > > mobile-related and structured data-related projects that seem to
> suck
> > > > > up all the oxygen and volunteer time available.
> > > > >
> > > > > Note that the history of these project/funding ideas is so long,
> that
> > > > > several of the most experienced long term volunteers that were
> > > > > originally interested have since retired. Without some positive
> short
> > > > > term encouragement, not only do these ideas never reach the useful
> > > > > experiment stage, but the volunteers involved simply fade away.
> > > > >
> > > > > Links
> > > > > 1.
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump/Archive/2016/02#Google_has_opened_an_API_for_image_recognition
> > > > > 2. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae/Imagehash
> > > > >
> > > > > Fae
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, 12 May 2019 at 12:21, Amir Sarabadani <ladsgr...@gmail.com
> >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > IMO commons need either a Clue Bot NG for new uploads or ores
> > support
> > > > for
> > > > > > images that might be copyright violation, or both.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:10 PM Yaroslav Blanter <
> ymb...@gmail.com
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Just the active community itself is too small, compared with
> the
> > > > > amount of
> > > > > > > material it has to deal with.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cheers
> > > > > > > Yaroslav
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 1:07 PM Benjamin Ikuta <
> > > > > benjaminik...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Is the shortage of admins due to a lack of people willing or
> > > > capable
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > do
> > > > > > > > the job, or increasing difficulty in obtaining the bit?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On May 12, 2019, at 3:55 AM, Tomasz Ganicz <
> > polime...@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Well, Actually, at the moment it looks they are all
> > undeleted.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The good habit - which I was keeping when organizing
> several
> > > > > > > GLAM-related
> > > > > > > > > mass uploads - was to create on Commons project page
> > describing
> > > > > what it
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > intended to be uploaded, preferably in English. Then you
> can
> > > > > create a
> > > > > > > > > project template to mark all uploads with them.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > See:
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Partnerships
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Despite practical issue of avoiding unnecessary clashes
> with
> > > > > Common's
> > > > > > > > > admins - creating template and project page helps to
> promote
> > you
> > > > > > > project
> > > > > > > > > across Wikimedia communities and may inspire others to do
> > > > something
> > > > > > > > similar.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Commons is indeed quite hostile environment for uploaders,
> > but on
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > > hand it is constantly flooded by hundreds  of copyright
> > violating
> > > > > > > files a
> > > > > > > > > day:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > See the list from just one day:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/2019/05/01
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > so this hostility works both ways - Common's admins have to
> > cope
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > aggressive hostile copyright violators every day, and after
> > some
> > > > > time -
> > > > > > > > > decide to leave or became being hostile themselves... and
> the
> > > > other
> > > > > > > issue
> > > > > > > > > is decreasing number of active admins and OTRS agents.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I think - sooner or later - all this system - uploads -
> > screening
> > > > > > > uploads
> > > > > > > > > by admins, and OTRS agreements - needs deep rethinking.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > niedz., 12 maj 2019 o 10:48 Mister Thrapostibongles <
> > > > > > > > > thrapostibong...@gmail.com> napisał(a):
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >> Hello all,
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> There seems to be a dispute between the Outreach and the
> > Commons
> > > > > > > > components
> > > > > > > > >> of The Community, judging by the article "Wikimedia
> > Commons: a
> > > > > highly
> > > > > > > > >> hostile place for multimedia students contributions" at
> the
> > > > > Education
> > > > > > > > >> Newsletter
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> >
> https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Education/News/April_2019/Wikimedia_Commons:_a_highly_hostile_place_for_multimedia_students_contributions
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> As far as I can understand it, some students on an
> Outreach
> > > > > project
> > > > > > > > >> uploaded some rather well-made video material, and comeone
> > on
> > > > > Commons
> > > > > > > > >> deleted them because they appeared to well-made to be
> > student
> > > > > projects
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > >> so concluded they were copyright violations.  But some
> > rather
> > > > odd
> > > > > > > > remarks
> > > > > > > > >> were made "Commons has to fight the endless stream of
> > uploaded
> > > > > > > > copyrighted
> > > > > > > > >> content on behalf of a headquarters in San Francisco that
> > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > care."
> > > > > > > > >> and
> > > > > > > > >> "you have regarded Commons as little more than free cloud
> > > > storage
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > > >> images you intend to use on Wikipedia ".
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Perhaps the Foundation needs to resolve this dispute?
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Thrapostibongles
> > > > > > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > > >> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
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> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> > > > > > > > > http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> > > > > > > > > http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Amir (he/him)
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > James Heilman
> > > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > > _______________________________________________
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> --
> Samuel Klein          @metasj           w:user:sj          +1 617 529 4266
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