I've not been on those dumping grounds, open air sewages and troll hives
were that stuff is said to be happening, and only know that from Fae and
Raystorm accounts. What is going on at those places possibly is the same as
what happened with GamerGate, I've not confirmed, and frankly I'm not
interested in the least in going to such troll dens. What I fail to
understand is what's the point of the chair of the BoT dropping into an
already very much escalated discussion, first stating she's not part of
that community, then that she is not interested in their current situation,
and would not take part on addressing that issue even if she had not been
involved in it. And then proceeding to lecture the onwiki community, the
vast majority of which is not involved in that offwiki stuff and not even
aware of it, dismissing the whole case about editorial independence of
Wikipedia as a sexist mob doing GamerGate stuff. It only made everything
worse than what already was.

Best,
Paulo





Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com> escreveu no dia sexta, 14/06/2019 à(s) 08:33:

> I think that I understand the GamerGate reference. A decentralized swarm of
> harassment can be a major problem, and in this case I am concerned (I
> haven't attempted to review the evidence) that at least one person is being
> hounded off-wiki regarding their alleged involvement in this matter in a
> way that would receive a firm response by ENWP administrators if the same
> hounding was happening on ENWP.
>
> Fear of being hounded can discourage people from reporting problems.
>
> On English Wikipedia we have some administrators who are willing to make
> politically difficult blocks, and we have an arbitration committee that has
> been willing to review alleged misconduct by high profile people including
> administrators, but I'm not sure that all wikis have a sufficient number of
> competent and good faith administrators to address allegations of
> misconduct, especially misconduct by people who have relatively high levels
> of local political support.
>
> Even more challenging to moderate are off-wiki activities in places which
> do not honor ENWP norms. I do not know of a robust solution to this
> problem, and my guess is that there is no robust solution unless we want
> governments to have more ability to proactively filter and to suppress
> Internet content that does not meet with their approval.
>
> I think that ENWP is more like a busy, diverse, and loud public square than
> a quiet office with tight control of what everyone does and a central
> authority that quickly gets rid of people who make statements that are not
> acceptable within narrow parameters. I worry that the concept of "safe
> spaces" may come to mean something like: "People are only allowed to
> participate on Wikimedia sites if they act according to WMF's opinions
> regarding politically correct behavior and create content that does not
> offend WMF". Political correctness and safety are not characteristics that
> I would associate with Wikimedia sites, for better and for worse, and I
> think that attempting to create more political correctness and safety can
> come at too much expense of honesty, due process, freedom of expression,
> and editorial independence. As mentioned by others, WMF’s recent power grab
> calls into question the editorial independence of the Wikimedia
> communities.
>
> This does not mean that I would give a free pass to Fram or that I am OK
> with someone hounding a person who makes a complaint, whether on wiki or
> off wiki.
>
> I think that a good conversation for the ENWP community to have would be
> regarding how we can increase confidence by victims of harassment in the
> integrity of ENWP's investigation and enforcement systems. Courage is
> sometimes necessary to speak up in public, as many of us are doing in this
> thread and on wiki with various degrees of personal risk. I am concerned
> about community members possibly deciding not to report problems because
> they lack confidence that their reports will be taken seriously by ENWP's
> community authorities and lack confidence that they will be protected from
> further harm to the extent that the ENWP community can protect them.
> (Protecting people from off wiki hounding is, unfortunately, probably
> impossible if aggressors are determined to hound someone.)
>
> I have concerns regarding a system for anonymous complaints because I
> generally support transparent enforcement and due process. However, if
> victims are not reporting problems due to fear and if there is a way that
> we can provide due process protections for the accused while increasing the
> confidence of victims in ENWP's investigations and enforcement systems then
> I think that we should consider making modifications. This does not require
> any involvement from WMF, although we might want to ask WMF for technical
> support if needed for a system that we design or agree to implement.
> Pine
> ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
>
> P.S. I need to stop posting in this thread so that I do not exceed my limit
> of Wikimedia-l posts for the month, but my silence does not indicate lack
> of interest.
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 13, 2019, 16:24 Paulo Santos Perneta <paulospern...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > No idea what could be the relation with GamerGate and the current issue
> > onwiki at wiki en. Would you care to elaborate?
> >
> > Paulo
> >
> > A quinta, 13 de jun de 2019, 19:53, David Gerard <dger...@gmail.com>
> > escreveu:
> >
> > > I think the problem is that the pathological people, having been
> > > called out on being pathological, decided to double down on the
> > > original complainant. See also: Gamergate, a clearly apt and apposite
> > > comparison.
> > >
> > > On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 at 19:48, Pine W <wiki.p...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I'm sad to hear that. I would not want a victim to go with a request
> > for
> > > > help to WMF, local functionaries, an arbitration committee, or anyone
> > > else,
> > > > and have the situation end up worse rather than better. I don't know
> > what
> > > > to recommend. Perhaps you could ask the stewards what they think.
> > > >
> > > > I am also sad to hear about the difficulties regarding the situation
> in
> > > > which you think that someone was at risk of self-harm. I think that
> the
> > > > situation you described is probably appropriate for review by the
> > > > management of WMF Trust and Safety so that they can take a second
> > look. I
> > > > encourage you to contact them.
> > > >
> > > > I am finding this conversation to be rather depressing, but I am glad
> > > that
> > > > we are having it, because this is one way of developing solutions.
> > > >
> > > > Pine
> > > > _______________________________________________
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