From my perspective of 4 years on enWP arb com, there is no question that
the enWP does not deal well with routine low-level harassment in the
absence of something really awful. If it were done by the WMF using
in-camera proceedings, , there would probably be more actual problem
editors sanctioned, and  probably more over-reaction and sanctions based on
unfair accusations. Opinions vary about the relative importance of those
two, but as for me, the probability of unfairness from secret proceeding by
anonymous paid staff is by far the worse, and I see it as in direct
opposition to the principles underlying the entire wikipedia effort.

If the WMF would assist the enWP to develop its own procedures, towards
something that would be both effective and fair, *that* would be useful.
The nature of this event causes me to doubt they could do it.  For one
thing, they do not seem to understand that sanctions of this sort teach the
lesson only if they are closely related in time to the offense, not follow
months afterwards--otherwise it is punitive, not corrective.  Much worse,
it seems  they do not  understand or value the concept of basic fairness.

I am not however saying that I personally find the actual sanction here
totally unwarranted.  The problem is rather that it sets a terrible
precedent.

On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 7:14 PM Todd Allen <toddmal...@gmail.com> wrote:

> You ought to read the entire paragraph. Such as the part where I explicitly
> acknowledged that Fram's version of events may be inaccurate or incomplete.
>
> Todd
>
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2019, 5:03 PM David Gerard <dger...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > If you really think Fram's framing of events here is even plausible,
> > let alone the story, then you're less competent than I have previously
> > considered you to be.
> >
> > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 18:47, Todd Allen <toddmal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > According to Fram, the WMF told him his "interaction ban" was for
> > > maintenance tagging two articles, yes (and when I looked at the diffs,
> > the
> > > maintenance tags were accurate and necessary). So, either Fram is lying
> > or
> > > omitting something (and the WMF, for whatever reason, is not
> challenging
> > > him on it), the WMF lied to Fram, or they did indeed sanction him for
> > what
> > > they told him they sanctioned him for.
> > >
> > > Todd
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 4:37 AM David Gerard <dger...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > and you're *seriously* positing that the WMF would ban an admin for
> > > > doing only what you describe?
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 11:32, Todd Allen <toddmal...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The only case of "harassment" apparently cited here was "I kept
> > writing
> > > > > garbage articles, and someone kept flagging them as garbage!
> > Harassment!
> > > > > Bad!"
> > > > >
> > > > > If you don't want your articles to be flagged as garbage, FIND YOUR
> > > > SOURCES
> > > > > PRIOR TO WRITING THEM, AND CITE THEM. That's rather a requirement
> > anyway.
> > > > > The editor in question repeatedly failed to do that, repeatedly had
> > her
> > > > > articles flagged for failure to do that, and regarded that as
> > > > "harassment"
> > > > > rather than her own failure to follow the English Wikipedia's
> > policies.
> > > > > Next time, she needs to find the sources first, and write the
> article
> > > > only
> > > > > after she has them in hand.
> > > > >
> > > > > Todd
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 10:14 AM Robert Fernandez <
> > > > wikigamal...@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > If someone is able to harass someone for years and nothing is
> done
> > then
> > > > > > clearly community procedures are not “perfectly adequate”
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 11:36 AM Fæ <fae...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > This misses the point, as others have highlighted already.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The WMF can and /should/ globally and permanently ban
> > paedophiles,
> > > > > > > terrorists, system hackers and people making multiple
> cross-wiki
> > > > death
> > > > > > > threats or threats of suicide. There are perfectly good and
> > > > > > > understandable reasons as to why the evidence behind these
> > attacks
> > > > and
> > > > > > > threats would be kept unpublished, it's seriously personal or
> > > > criminal
> > > > > > > stuff.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The WMF making topic bans, interaction bans and limited project
> > > > > > > specific bans against Wikipedians is a brand new invention,
> which
> > > > goes
> > > > > > > against the pre-existing understanding that the WMF do not
> > replace
> > > > > > > existing and perfectly adequate community agreed procedures for
> > > > > > > banning bad behaviour on our projects. Once full time WMF
> > employees
> > > > > > > start doing in parallel what volunteer administrators already
> do,
> > > > then
> > > > > > > we should question why we do not *pay* volunteers
> administrators
> > the
> > > > > > > same hourly rate and we are likely to see a mass exodus of
> > > > > > > administrators. After all, would you, say, deliver the post for
> > free
> > > > > > > in your area for fun, but thereby take away decent full time
> > > > > > > employment with a guaranteed pension for your local postie?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If the reason for the WMF stepping in to ban Fram for a year is
> > > > > > > because the WMF do not trust Wikipedia administrators or
> > Wikipedia's
> > > > > > > Arbcom to take sensible action in harassment cases, then they
> > should
> > > > > > > be raising that honestly and openly with Arbcom. If the English
> > > > > > > Wikipedia's policies are not fit for purpose, or implementation
> > of
> > > > > > > policy is incompetent, we need a much bigger discussion than
> > whether
> > > > > > > Fram did something so terrible it cannot be named, but oddly
> was
> > not
> > > > > > > worth a global ban but only the equivalent of a 12 month block
> on
> > > > > > > Wikipedia while they are free to do whatever they feel like on
> > other
> > > > > > > Wikimedia projects.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Fae
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 at 15:35, John Erling Blad <
> jeb...@gmail.com
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > When you bad mouth other users there should be, and will be,
> > > > > > > consequences.
> > > > > > > > An admin got desysoped and banned after repeated warnings? So
> > > > what? The
> > > > > > > > only ting to be learned is that some people believe they can
> do
> > > > > > whatever
> > > > > > > > they want and it has no consequences, and other people goes
> > > > ballistic
> > > > > > > when
> > > > > > > > consequences happen.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I would have given desysoped fram and 14 days to cool off,
> and
> > if
> > > > that
> > > > > > > did
> > > > > > > > not work out repeated with one month. Banning someone for one
> > year
> > > > is
> > > > > > > like
> > > > > > > > telling them to leave and don't come back. Someone at WMF is
> > > > clearly
> > > > > > > overly
> > > > > > > > sensitive, but not reacting would also be wrong.
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-- 
David Goodman

DGG at enWP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DGG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG
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