Do you at least believe him when he says he hasn't contacted anyone offwiki,
and everything he was warned about was onwiki?
And if he really is lying, why can't they even say so?
On Jun 28, 2019, at 12:14 PM, Robert Fernandez <wikigamal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I do.
>
> It just doesn’t make any sense. His account is either wrong or leaving out
> much of the truth.
>
> I have some idea (from unfortunate experience) how long office bans take,
> how much work goes into them, and how many people have to sign off on them.
>
> So we’re either saying one person with a checkered history is lying or a
> large number of professionals lied, conspired, and lashed out.
>
> Occam’s razor.
>
> On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 5:15 AM Benjamin Ikuta <benjaminik...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Why do you doubt Fram? What do you think happened? And why can't the WMF
>> say even so much as a, "That's not accurate."?
>>
>> You really think he's just outright lying?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 14, 2019, at 4:03 PM, David Gerard <dger...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> If you really think Fram's framing of events here is even plausible,
>>> let alone the story, then you're less competent than I have previously
>>> considered you to be.
>>>
>>> On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 18:47, Todd Allen <toddmal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> According to Fram, the WMF told him his "interaction ban" was for
>>>> maintenance tagging two articles, yes (and when I looked at the diffs,
>> the
>>>> maintenance tags were accurate and necessary). So, either Fram is lying
>> or
>>>> omitting something (and the WMF, for whatever reason, is not challenging
>>>> him on it), the WMF lied to Fram, or they did indeed sanction him for
>> what
>>>> they told him they sanctioned him for.
>>>>
>>>> Todd
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 4:37 AM David Gerard <dger...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> and you're *seriously* positing that the WMF would ban an admin for
>>>>> doing only what you describe?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 11:32, Todd Allen <toddmal...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The only case of "harassment" apparently cited here was "I kept
>> writing
>>>>>> garbage articles, and someone kept flagging them as garbage!
>> Harassment!
>>>>>> Bad!"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you don't want your articles to be flagged as garbage, FIND YOUR
>>>>> SOURCES
>>>>>> PRIOR TO WRITING THEM, AND CITE THEM. That's rather a requirement
>> anyway.
>>>>>> The editor in question repeatedly failed to do that, repeatedly had
>> her
>>>>>> articles flagged for failure to do that, and regarded that as
>>>>> "harassment"
>>>>>> rather than her own failure to follow the English Wikipedia's
>> policies.
>>>>>> Next time, she needs to find the sources first, and write the article
>>>>> only
>>>>>> after she has them in hand.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Todd
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 10:14 AM Robert Fernandez <
>>>>> wikigamal...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If someone is able to harass someone for years and nothing is done
>> then
>>>>>>> clearly community procedures are not “perfectly adequate”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 11:36 AM Fæ <fae...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This misses the point, as others have highlighted already.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The WMF can and /should/ globally and permanently ban paedophiles,
>>>>>>>> terrorists, system hackers and people making multiple cross-wiki
>>>>> death
>>>>>>>> threats or threats of suicide. There are perfectly good and
>>>>>>>> understandable reasons as to why the evidence behind these attacks
>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> threats would be kept unpublished, it's seriously personal or
>>>>> criminal
>>>>>>>> stuff.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The WMF making topic bans, interaction bans and limited project
>>>>>>>> specific bans against Wikipedians is a brand new invention, which
>>>>> goes
>>>>>>>> against the pre-existing understanding that the WMF do not replace
>>>>>>>> existing and perfectly adequate community agreed procedures for
>>>>>>>> banning bad behaviour on our projects. Once full time WMF employees
>>>>>>>> start doing in parallel what volunteer administrators already do,
>>>>> then
>>>>>>>> we should question why we do not *pay* volunteers administrators the
>>>>>>>> same hourly rate and we are likely to see a mass exodus of
>>>>>>>> administrators. After all, would you, say, deliver the post for free
>>>>>>>> in your area for fun, but thereby take away decent full time
>>>>>>>> employment with a guaranteed pension for your local postie?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If the reason for the WMF stepping in to ban Fram for a year is
>>>>>>>> because the WMF do not trust Wikipedia administrators or Wikipedia's
>>>>>>>> Arbcom to take sensible action in harassment cases, then they should
>>>>>>>> be raising that honestly and openly with Arbcom. If the English
>>>>>>>> Wikipedia's policies are not fit for purpose, or implementation of
>>>>>>>> policy is incompetent, we need a much bigger discussion than whether
>>>>>>>> Fram did something so terrible it cannot be named, but oddly was not
>>>>>>>> worth a global ban but only the equivalent of a 12 month block on
>>>>>>>> Wikipedia while they are free to do whatever they feel like on other
>>>>>>>> Wikimedia projects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fae
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 at 15:35, John Erling Blad <jeb...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When you bad mouth other users there should be, and will be,
>>>>>>>> consequences.
>>>>>>>>> An admin got desysoped and banned after repeated warnings? So
>>>>> what? The
>>>>>>>>> only ting to be learned is that some people believe they can do
>>>>>>> whatever
>>>>>>>>> they want and it has no consequences, and other people goes
>>>>> ballistic
>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>>> consequences happen.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I would have given desysoped fram and 14 days to cool off, and if
>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> did
>>>>>>>>> not work out repeated with one month. Banning someone for one year
>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>> telling them to leave and don't come back. Someone at WMF is
>>>>> clearly
>>>>>>>> overly
>>>>>>>>> sensitive, but not reacting would also be wrong.
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