BTW, I seem to recall that in last ASBS election, affiliates which
presented something like 70% member overlap with another affiliate would
not be allowed to participate in the process.
If this practice is kept, it avoids gaming the system (intentionally or
unintentionally) through a multiplication of affiliates which are basically
cells or clones of one of them.

If this is safeguarded, cell-style affiliates probably can become a nice
feature.

Paulo

Paulo Santos Perneta <paulospern...@gmail.com> escreveu no dia sábado,
5/10/2019 à(s) 00:45:

> Hey,
>
> "*1) if a group has more active cores, maybe they should be more broadly
> represented in Berlin. Maybe these constructs shouldn't be necessary.*"
> -> I can agree with that point, yes;
> "*2) No matter how much some care about the ASBS, I doubt that this will
> be a driving force to get more bureaucracy (because that is the cost of
> setting up a UG).*" - I respect your opinion, but IMO getting to have
> increased, or even decisive power on the election of 2 of the 5 members
> (which in turn appoint and confirm the other 5) of the board of one of the
> biggest players and stakeholders of modern days, as the Wikimedia
> Foundation has been growing into progressively, is indeed a powerful driven
> force. Furthermore, as far as I know, bureaucratic requirements for UGs are
> really low, and in line with a department or cell would have to report to
> the mother organization. I'm not saying or even suggesting this was the
> driven force behind the formation of the SPUG, I certainly assume good
> faith. I'm saying that it may be a driven force for similar cases presented
> as local affiliates more or less explicitly under the umbrella of a
> national chapter to pop up. And this aspect can be potentially unfair, and
> even amount to abuse of the system, as a trick to gather more votes;
> *"3) funding for local activities is probably not really a consideration
> in the case of Russia, where foreign funding is (to put it mildly)
> 'complicated'.* I mentioned funding, not WMF funding necessarily. It's
> perfectly understandable that a locally registered association may have, in
> some contexts, more easy access to funds than a national one. I live in an
> autonomous region where it is very common, so I understand it may be indeed
> a legitimate reason to create and register a local affiliate. No idea if
> that is the case of Saint Petersburg, but if it is, it's a smart move.
>
> Basically, I'm not criticizing this approval - I've no idea what is behind
> the group formation, though I assume the members have the best intentions,
> and it actually looks like a smart move. I'm just curious if this will
> become a trend, and how will it develop.
>
> Best,
> Paulo
>
> effe iets anders <effeietsand...@gmail.com> escreveu no dia sexta,
> 4/10/2019 à(s) 21:39:
>
>> Sure, if you want to see it through that lens I guess you could argue
>> such.
>> However, just to put things in perspective: 1) if a group has more active
>> cores, maybe they should be more broadly represented in Berlin. Maybe
>> these
>> constructs shouldn't be necessary. 2) No matter how much some care about
>> the ASBS, I doubt that this will be a driving force to get more
>> bureaucracy
>> (because that is the cost of setting up a UG). 3) funding for local
>> activities is probably not really a consideration in the case of Russia,
>> where foreign funding is (to put it mildly) 'complicated'.
>>
>> Lets assume for the sake of the discussion that the group has legitimate
>> reasons to request affiliate status (although I have my assumptions, I'm
>> curious what tipped the scale).
>>
>> Lodewijk
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 3:01 AM Paulo Santos Perneta <
>> paulospern...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > This is a very interesting strategy for any well developed affiliate. It
>> > allows :
>> >
>> > * decentralization, and stronger local groups, now as full fledged
>> > affiliates
>> > * more seats in Berlin and other conferences
>> > * more votes in the ASBS election
>> > * less financial burden over the national chapter, and additional
>> funding
>> > for local activities.
>> >
>> > Huge and well established chapters like WMDE could easily set up dozens
>> of
>> > local affiliates, with great advantage.
>> >
>> > Paulo
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > A sexta, 4 de out de 2019, 08:04, Philip Kopetzky <
>> > philip.kopet...@gmail.com>
>> > escreveu:
>> >
>> > > I can only reiterate what Lodewijk said - I'm trying to find the
>> approach
>> > > and goals in the decision to acknowledge user groups that seem to be
>> an
>> > > integral part (or from an outside perspective, should be) of the
>> national
>> > > chapter. In the past this has been an indicator of personal conflicts
>> > > within a chapter or user group and AffCom perpetuating these
>> conflicts by
>> > > setting up competing affiliates (the situation in Albania being a
>> recent
>> > > example of this).
>> > >
>> > > Best,
>> > > Philip
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 at 06:33, effe iets anders <
>> effeietsand...@gmail.com>
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > I would like to note that one of the contacts of this user group is
>> > > > Vladimir Medeyko, the director of Wikimedia Russia. I'm assuming
>> > > > comfortably that this application happened in full coordination with
>> > > > Wikimedia Russia.
>> > > >
>> > > > The question about process is still an interesting one though (what
>> is
>> > > > nowadays the approach of Affcom, and what are the considerations)
>> when
>> > a
>> > > > user group application comes in from a geographic area with an
>> active
>> > > > affiliate at a 'higher level' (in this case, a country). You could
>> > > continue
>> > > > the comparison with what happens if an application would come in
>> from
>> > > South
>> > > > of Nevsky (a neighborhood in St. Petersburg).
>> > > >
>> > > > Lodewijk
>> > > >
>> > > > On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 3:29 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <
>> > > > paulospern...@gmail.com>
>> > > > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > Wikimedia NYC is a very different situation, there is not a
>> national
>> > > > > chapter in the US, so it's not a cell of anything.
>> > > > > Just to clarify: Saint Petersburg eventually could not be a cell,
>> but
>> > > the
>> > > > > way it is presented (to promote Wikimedia RU activities in SP,
>> with
>> > > same
>> > > > > Wikimedia RU people), it's basically a cell.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Paulo
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Yuri Astrakhan <yuriastrak...@gmail.com> escreveu no dia quinta,
>> > > > 3/10/2019
>> > > > > à(s) 23:06:
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > What about Wikimedia NYC?  (I'm not sure of its organizational
>> > > status)
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > On Thu, Oct 3, 2019 at 6:03 PM Paulo Santos Perneta <
>> > > > > > paulospern...@gmail.com>
>> > > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Wales is a whole country complete with it's own language, I
>> don't
>> > > > > believe
>> > > > > > > it compares with a city UG.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Paulo
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Andy Mabbett <a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk> escreveu no dia
>> quinta,
>> > > > > > 3/10/2019
>> > > > > > > à(s) 22:53:
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 20:45, Paulo Santos Perneta
>> > > > > > > > <paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > Why isn't it a department of Wikimedia Russia, if
>> apparently
>> > > it's
>> > > > > > > > basically
>> > > > > > > > > a cell of Wikimedia Russia?
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > It's a curious precedent.
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > The precedent was already set, in March 2017, by Wikimedia
>> > > > Community
>> > > > > > > > User Group Wales (c/f Wikimedia UK).
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > --
>> > > > > > > > Andy Mabbett
>> > > > > > > > @pigsonthewing
>> > > > > > > > http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>> > > > > > > >
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