Hoi,
Peter we were celebrated when we received the Erasmus prize. It was a
joyous occasion and a clip was shown with children from Soweto explaining
what Wikipedia Zero meant for them. At the time we DID have statistics on
growth from Africa. We did know what growth was attributable to Wikipedia
Zero. We have continued to measure our performance so the answer is one
where someone with appropriate knowledgeable or skills looks at the
numbers, extrapolate a growth path and compare. Not really problematic.
What is problematic is for us to accept that our choices have
consequences. *Our
*maturity can be measured by our ability to know and accept the
consequences of our actions.

Contrary to some, I do think as an organisation we are doing quite well.
What we do is still biased and if we are to be less biased we have to both
ask for money and spend more money in Africa, South America and Asia. As it
is, European and North Americans have the expectation that they are
entitled because they pay for things. Fundraising in Africa, South American
and Asia may not be as "profitable" but the value we gain by asking people
to support *themselves *is of value in itself.

We could and should spend more where our potential impact is biggest. As it
is we do not even know the science that establishes or refutes what we have
in our Wikipedias. As it is we only know somewhat what we used as a
reference, hardly representative particularly when you broaden your
horizon. Oh and when will we have a formal register of organisations we
partner with like the Internet Archive?
Thanks,
        GerardM

On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 at 13:13, Peter Southwood <peter.southw...@telkomsa.net>
wrote:

> Gerhard,
> I am also interested in what the impact of Wikipedia Zero was, but it is
> not obvious to me how it would be measured.
> The board members are unlikely to have personally researched this, but
> might know if there is or was a project and if so what they are or were
> trying to measure. Equally, someone from WMF might be able to report on
> what has been or is being done in this regard. It is also possible that
> nothing has been done, or someone who does not read this list is working on
> it.
> If anyone reads this and can enlighten us, either to whether it is an
> ongoing project, has been done and the information is available somewhere,
> or nobody is known to be working on it, please let us know.
> Anyone who has ideas on how it could be measured or why it can't is also
> welcome to comment.
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Gerard Meijssen
> Sent: 01 December 2019 08:19
> To: Lodewijk Gelauf; Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Remember Wikipedia Zero.. Where is the research
> about the effects of its demise?
>
> Lodewijk,
> What I asked for is: do we understand what the impact was of the Wikipedia
> Zero project. In the answer of James, a board member of the WMF someone who
> could know, there is nothing that answers that question. All the answer
> does is deflect the question to something else. A notion that it is "not
> that bad because we have these other things". These things we had before
> Wikipedia Zero, they are not Wikipedia and they do not scale.
>
> What I have noticed is that once consensus has been reached, we do not want
> to be confronted with the consequences of our actions. Wikipedia Zero has
> damaged our outreach and what the BBC info reminds us of is that Internet,
> the cost of Internet, is not comparable in Africa with what we are used to.
> It means that we no longer reach the girls and boys in Soweto as we showed
> in our film clip at the Erasmus award.
>
> We do not cover Africa properly, we do not need to seek consensus about
> this, that is easily to be shown. Our focus on outreach is in America, then
> Europe, then the rest of the world and there is Africa. From the moment we
> stopped Wikipedia Zero, we have invested heavily in infrastructure in
> Africa, the organisational presence in the USA is now such that it rivals
> Wikimania and is used as an excuse by some to even dismantle Wikimania. As
> an organisation, a movement the "centre periphery" model is alive and well.
> We happily embrace Burke's peerage in Wikidata and we balk at the fact that
> covering science takes resources away from pet projects.
>
> You tell me to be constructive and here I lay out what the situation is.
> How can you be constructive as our movement does not support science, the
> people who need our information most are disenfranchised because we do not
> cover them, support them in an equal manner.
> Thanks,
>
>
> On Sun, 1 Dec 2019 at 04:31, effe iets anders <effeietsand...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Gerard,
> >
> > It would be great if you could keep a slightly more constructive tone in
> > your messages. On one hand, you seem genuinely interested to help access
> to
> > free knowledge in Africa, but in your second email, you seem to jump
> (after
> > one response) to conclusions already. If you like to get real responses
> to
> > your emails, you may want to try a more constructive attitude. For me, it
> > is at least sufficiently offputting to disengage (I removed the rest of
> my
> > response/suggestions).
> >
> > -- Lodewijk
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 9:34 PM Gerard Meijssen <
> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hoi,
> > > Kiwix and off line Wikipedia did exist at the start of Wikipedia Zero.
> > It
> > > is great that you brought some to Africa but you do not scale and it is
> > not
> > > a study into the effects of what the effects are of terminating
> Wikipedia
> > > Zero.
> >
> >
> > > No idea what "Starlink"  is
> >
> >
> > https://lmgtfy.com/?q=starlink&s=l
> >
> >
> > > but it is not a reality for a few more years..
> > > It sounds like we have thrown all these kids under the bus but hey, we
> > have
> > > plan. A plan/action is having our own caches in Africa and providing
> edit
> > > and read capabilities for all who care to use it... and then measure
> the
> > > extend it helps us recover from our Wikipedia Zero public.
> > > Thanks,
> > >        GerardM
> > >
> > > On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 at 02:48, James Heilman <jmh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > We have offline Wikipedia. I have shipped devices to Kinshasa, and
> > > > they arrived :-)
> > > >
> > > > Of course they do not at all address the need for two way
> > communication.
> > > >
> > > > I am hoping Starlink will help when it comes online in a few years.
> > > >
> > > > James
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 12:19 AM Gerard Meijssen
> > > > <gerard.meijs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hoi,
> > > > > The BBC shows how dramatically expensive internet is in Africa..
> For
> > in
> > > > my
> > > > > opinion local political reasons Wikipedia Zero has terminated. That
> > is
> > > ok
> > > > > up to a point; the point being that we understand the consequences
> > from
> > > > > this action.
> > > > >
> > > > > Given that our data is NOT local, people have to pay a premium.
> What
> > > are
> > > > we
> > > > > going to do to compensate for expensive Wikipedia that replaced
> > > Wikipedia
> > > > > Zero? Did we study the effects or are we not interested in the
> > > > consequences
> > > > > of our actions?
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >        GerardM
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-50516888
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> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > James Heilman
> > > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> > > >
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