Perfect encapsulation of what's gone wrong here in this debate. Andy makes some really solid points; OTRS is a black hole, has a history of being clubby, etc. That history has a lot of smudge marks on it going all the way back to wiki-en IRC channels and the overlap between IRC admins and OTRS admins and how it all fed into toxicity and secrecy.
The end goal - transparency in OTRS - is therefore a no brainer, but the strategy being deployed to make progress is ineffective. Below is an example of why: Tomasz notes, correctly, that OTRS agents on *general info queues* (which he distinguished from permission queues) just answer questions, they don't exercise authority. Andy's reply is both argumentative and inaccurate. Tomasz could easily be on-side for genuine reform. He's an insider at OTRS who acknowledges room for improvement. But it wouldn't surprise me if this response converts him to an opponent. This is a common dynamic on Wikipedia itself, and a big part of why people burnout and stuff doesn't get done. No one is inspired to collaborate from what reads as angry, argumentative accusations liberally applied to all participants. Whether you agree with the ultimate objective or not, it's easier to just disengage. On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 11:36 AM Andy Mabbett <a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk> wrote: > On Mon, 20 Jul 2020 at 10:01, Tomasz Ganicz <polime...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > In fact - OTRS agents answering questions for general info queues have no > > special power - I mean they do not make any "secretive" decisions > > But they do; and we know that they do. The specific case to which you > refer above occurred when an OS agen declined to accept multiple > in-scope photographs, from multiple correspondents, sent at the > request of Wikidata editors, to OTRS by non-Wikimdians. This only came > to light because the person who had organised the campaign noticed, > and brought it to the attention of Wikidata editors, on Wikidata. > > Nonetheless, that specific case led to general questions. about how > ORS operates across our movement. > > And note that not one of the ten questions I referred to at the top of > this thread mentones any specific case. _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimediaemail@example.com Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>