I don't think the approach "we are going to see resistance anyway, so lets
make it a bigger change" has proven to be terribly helpful in the past year
or so.

These layout changes are hard for sure, but there are definitely ways to
bring people on board. The thing is, not every exciting change is
necessarily going to help everyone to the same extent, and it's hard to
convince a really diverse community. But there are a few tricks that we
should definitely keep using, that are nothing new to the developing
community: don't surprise (iterate and be public), try it out in a willing
community (check) and try to remain backward compatible (how long have we
supported the monobook skin now?).

I actually feel that a constant change is more helpful, because it gives
less of a 'now we have to fight to keep our ways' - it allows people to see
that they will like some changes, and dislike some others, but on a
balance, it'll improve for everyone. It's probably more time consuming
because it requires more consultation too, but I think it's worth it.

Lodewijk

On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 5:00 AM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <
galder...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Indeed! The FINAL stage of the changes is deeply conservative and not a
> change at all. It's a small lifting, but not a real change. We are now 10
> years old, and with the new changes we will be 8 years old in a year,
> instead of being 11 years old.
> ________________________________
> From: Olga Vasileva <ovasil...@wikimedia.org>
> Sent: Monday, August 24, 2020 1:53 PM
> To: Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <galder...@hotmail.com>
> Cc: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's discuss first features of Desktop
> Improvements coming to Vector
>
> Hi Vira, Ala'a, and Galder,
>
> Thanks for your feedback - we’re really glad you’re enjoying the changes
> we’ve made so far.  I wanted to point out that this is not all! The
> deployed changes are a part of a larger series of improvements that we will
> be rolling out progressively over the next 1+ years. To see a list of the
> other features we are planning on working on, please check out our project
> page[1]. In addition, we believe that even after the project is complete,
> there will still be work to do. We’d like to view this project as a new
> baseline on which we can build new functionality that can improve both
> reading and editing in the future.
>
> Thanks again!
>
> - Olga
>
> [1]
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements/Features
>
> On Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 8:06 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <
> galder...@hotmail.com<mailto:galder...@hotmail.com>> wrote:
> Thanks for bringing this topic!
> At euwiki it has been some weeks we have experienced the new vector style,
> and it has some great things: you can be sure about how width images will
> take for any reader, you can create better galleries or even decide where
> to insert an image to avoid sandwiching.
>
> BUT...
>
> I think that the changes (even when finishing) will be too short on what
> we need (a real face change!) but it will annoy in the same amount to those
> who don't want any change at all. So, we are losing an opportunity to go on
> with big changes.
>
> Best
>
> Galder
> ________________________________
> From: Wikimedia-l <wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org<mailto:
> wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org>> on behalf of Ala'a Najjar <
> ala201...@hotmail.com<mailto:ala201...@hotmail.com>>
> Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2020 10:06 PM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org<mailto:
> wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>>
> Cc: ovasil...@wikimedia.org<mailto:ovasil...@wikimedia.org> <
> ovasil...@wikimedia.org<mailto:ovasil...@wikimedia.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Let's discuss first features of Desktop
> Improvements coming to Vector
>
> Thanks for bring our attention to this Desktop Improvements.
> I opened section about this on Arabic Wikipedia village pump
> https://w.wiki/a9S, so users can try it, and maybe there feedback can
> help Readers Web team.
>
> Best,
> Alaa
> https://w.wiki/JNQ
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wikimedia-l <wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org<mailto:
> wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org>> On Behalf Of Vira Motorko
> Sent: Saturday, August 22, 2020 1:01 PM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List‏ <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org<mailto:
> wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Let's discuss first features of Desktop
> Improvements coming to Vector
>
> Hi all,
>
> I don't see any messages about the Desktop Improvements to wikimedia-l, so
> I've decided to forward one from wikitech-l.
>
> If I understand correctly, Desktop Improvements are changes to the desktop
> version of the Vector skin, which are to be built throughout the next year,
> features being added one by one. Several wikis already enjoy them by
> default, and users of other wikis can find a respective tick in their
> preferences to make new Vector visible.
>
> Current features are said to not be permanent anyway but wouldn't it be
> good for more people to see them while they are still work in progress?
>
> See email text and links below.
> *--*
> *Vira Motorko // Віра Моторко*
> mobile: +380667740499 | facebook: vira.motorko <
> https://www.facebook.com/vira.motorko> | wikipedia: Ата <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ата>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> Від: Olga Vasileva <ovasil...@wikimedia.org<mailto:ovasil...@wikimedia.org
> >>
> Date: ср, 5 серп. 2020 о 15:33
> Subject: [Wikitech-l] First desktop improvements features now available on
> early adopter wikis
> ----
>
> Hi all,
>
> We’re happy to announce that the first two of many changes focused on
> improving the desktop experience of the Vector skin [1] have been released
> as a user preference to all projects and as default on a set of early
> adopter wikis: Basque, Farsi, French, and Hebrew Wikipedias, French
> Wiktionary, and Portuguese Wikiversity.
>
> Since its introduction in 2009, the Vector skin has changed little, while
> the needs of our readers and editors have shifted significantly, as have
> their expectations for a quality reading experience that focuses on the
> content itself. Over the next year, the readers web team [2] will be
> researching and building out improvements to the desktop experience based
> on research and existing tools built by our communities.
>
> Our goal is to create a more welcoming reading and editing experience -
> something that feels familiar yet makes it easier and quicker to read,
> edit, and perform common functionality.
>
> Our first change, a collapsible sidebar, allows users to collapse the
> lengthy menu on the left side of the page. We believe this change improves
> usability by allowing people to focus on the content itself - on reading,
> editing, or moderating.
>
> Our second change introduces a maximum line width to our content on pages
> such as article pages and discussion pages. Studies have shown that
> limiting the width can lead to better retention of content, as well as a
> decrease in eye strain
>
> You can opt into these features by unchecking “legacy vector” from the
> appearance tab of your user preferences.
>
> We’d also like to note that these are the first of a series of changes
> and, as such, their visual characteristics are not permanent. Also - there
> might be bugs. If you notice an issue or would like to learn more about the
> project itself - please head to our project page [3].
>
> Thank you!
>
> Olga
>
> [1] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Skin:Vector
> [2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Readers/Web/Team
> [3] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Reading/Web/Desktop_Improvements
> --
> *Olga Vasileva* // Senior Product Manager // Web
> https://wikimediafoundation.org/
>
>
> *Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in
> the sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate
> <http://donate.wikimedia.org/>. *
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> --
> Olga Vasileva // Lead Product Manager // Web
> https://wikimediafoundation.org/
>
> Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
> sum of all knowledge. That's our commitment. Donate<
> http://donate.wikimedia.org/>.
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