Thank you Mario! I'll ask further there. S On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 4:29 PM Mario Gómez <mariogomw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You might want to discuss this topic at > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikiproject:Antispam > > This page is watched by many people working against UPE in various > projects. Many are familiar with large-scale UPE operations. Some of us > already work with tools for automated and semi-automated detection. So it > might be more fruitful to discuss it with contributors experienced in that > area. > > Best, > > Mario > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2021 at 7:22 PM Samuel Klein <meta...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi Steven :) Good points. I agree with Adam that this is a major energy >> and enthusiasm drain for eitors. >> >> As to how we could start with data collection: >> >> * Monitor the market. >> a) Work with groups that are in the market and completely transparent >> about their work to maintain a sense of rates and volume >> b) Search general contracting sites, general search engines, and >> specific reputation brokers for new options; maintain a catalog >> c) Spot-check and commission work. As with Böhmermann >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_B%C3%B6hmermann>'s show - he spent >> under 500 Euros and identified two networks of UPE. >> >> * Build better tools for tracking and countering undisclosed paid editing >> a) Tracking: automated scoring, as with ORES >> b) Countering: As you say: tools to help people coordinate work, >> making it more fun and collaborative to take on UPE. Especially for >> often-targeted categories -- politicians + companies.. >> b) Both: Focus on tools for detecting large farms over time, and >> cleaning up the mess left by a farm. >> >> You're right about community size being a defense. But only for a time >> -- the growing demand for this actively subverts community members. Olaf >> was one! So we also need to think of ways to reduce and divert that demand >> into constructive channels. >> >> SJ >> >> On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 11:11 PM Steven Walling <steven.wall...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Given that it’s completely trivial to make new pseudonymous accounts how >>> would you propose even remotely accurate data collection to measure paid >>> editing? >>> >>> If we are worried about the impact of paid editors on the integrity of >>> content, we are much better served investing even more in efforts to >>> dramatically strengthen our volunteer community’s ability to defend the >>> projects. That means better software to help each editor do more, making it >>> fun, easy and welcoming for new contributors, and fighting the attrition in >>> admins and other functionaries. If our volunteer community was larger and >>> healthier, the threat of paid interference would be less scary. >>> >>> On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 7:20 PM Samuel Klein <meta...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Aha -- I was pointed to en:wp's List of paid editing companies >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_paid_editing_companies>. >>>> (thanks!) This is a great resource and deserves to be better linked. The >>>> page is semi-active - 4 additions in the last month, including the Olaf >>>> case. I've cleaned it up a bit and linked it to the German page. This >>>> really needs some automated scripting and tracking, at the scale of ORES... >>>> >>>> Is there any routine analysis / stats compiled of edits associated with >>>> these orgs, or of their activity online? >>>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 2:19 PM Samuel Klein <meta...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jan Böhmermann <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_B%C3%B6hmermann> >>>>> published an amazing expose on political WP editing in Germany; it gets >>>>> good around 15 minutes in >>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNsTaKwyAzI&t=900s>. In the video he >>>>> exposed the workings of a paid editing farm run (by Olaf Kosinsky ( >>>>> Wikidata <https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q30108329>; CheckUser >>>>> discussion >>>>> <https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProjekt_Umgang_mit_bezahltem_Schreiben/Verdachtsf%C3%A4lle/Olaf_Kosinsky> >>>>> ; archived PR-services site >>>>> <https://web.archive.org/web/20210416110100/https://kosinsky.eu/>), >>>>> an excellent long-time editor with over 3 million edits. >>>>> >>>>> *We need to distinguish paid editing from general COI editing*. Paid >>>>> editing is COI editing by professionals, who have strong external >>>>> incentives to persist, no leeway in the outcome they are aiming >>>>> for, experience in doing this in dozens of cases, and may have colleagues >>>>> who can drop in as 'uninvolved' editors to forge consensus or social >>>>> proof.[1] >>>>> >>>>> This is one of our great recurring challenges, siphoning off both our >>>>> reputation and our community. There are many things we can do about paid >>>>> editing, starting with maintaining *paid-editing metrics and a >>>>> dashboard* of known and estimated paid editing. We can estimate its >>>>> prevalence by the availabiity of services online[2]; and look for patterns >>>>> of such editing on wiki. Even with large error margins, this would be a >>>>> step above simply waiting for outbreaks to be discovered and reacting to >>>>> the visible bits of the iceberg. >>>>> >>>>> What sort of metrics like this do we have already? Who is working on >>>>> such things? >>>>> Since the above video came out, de:wp started a table of WP editing >>>>> services >>>>> <https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProjekt_Umgang_mit_bezahltem_Schreiben/F%C3%A4lle#Wikipedia-Web-Agenturen_auf_dem_Markt>. >>>>> It currently includes an initial dozen examples, with no estimate of >>>>> activity (the 1 account known to be associated with each is in most cases >>>>> blocked; but most have active websites soliciting work) This would be >>>>> useful in all languages. >>>>> >>>>> SJ >>>>> >>>>> [1] as Melmann wrote >>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Archive_167#Limiting_the_scope_of_COI_edit_requests> >>>>> recently: >>>>> "*in my experience, **all the most difficult edits are WP:PAID >>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:PAID>**. Most non-paid COI >>>>> comes from a place of desire to make things better, and often can be >>>>> relatively easily guided towards a better place... [or] it is relatively >>>>> easy to use existing enforcement mechanisms to to correct and ultimately >>>>> control their behaviours. PR professionals, on the other hand, are subtle >>>>> and sometimes downright deceptive, and it takes lots of effort to check >>>>> their edits when most of the time you lack context and expertise and you >>>>> really have to research in depth to see their edits for what they really >>>>> are. I think that one of the fundamental mistakes of the current policy is >>>>> lumping paid editors with general COI editing as paid editors are >>>>> fundamentally playing on a different level in terms of PR expertise and >>>>> incentives*" >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines >> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >> Public archives at >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/Q5MNSKMA45ZDH2IYQDWHPXQ7C6WEIQQA/ >> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines > at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > Public archives at > https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/OB232G2K4B23Q3ZJJIHLBKF6W2XQAL72/ > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org -- Samuel Klein @metasj w:user:sj +1 617 529 4266
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