I took a look at Vikidia, thought I could do something for them, signed up with 
an account, read what I could find of the guidance, and created an article on 
Underwater diving, following the rules as I understood them, using properly 
attributed CC-by-sa content from Simple English Wikipedia as a basic framework, 
and was busy expanding it when it was deleted without discussion by user 
Ajeje_Brazorf with the edit summary (Please don't copy from simple wikipedia}, 
and no explanation why not. If I had done that on English Wikipedia I would 
risk losing my admin bit. If that is how new users are routinely treated there 
that encyclopedia is doomed. I will not be back to waste my time there. Cheers, 


From: Mathias Damour [mailto:mathias.dam...@gmx.fr] 
Sent: 24 June 2022 00:00
To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia


Ok, I did read your message too fast... I nevertheless know Simple English 


I think that SEWP was created like it is, partly by fear of creating a project 
openly directed to children, and I'm afraid it precisely make it not so 
compelling for them.


> The thing is, as the main English Wikipedia more specialist, and therefore 
> more complicated, we have a Simple English Wikipedia that we shouldn’t let 
> languish in the hopes of creating a children's encyclopedia out of whole 
> cloth.


Actually, Vikidia in english does exist, with 4,035 articles !


Unfortunately, the developpment of the wikis for children is very uneven, and 
it seems hard to overcome the delay when they were launched later one than 
another or missed their launch. For exemple I know about two or three unlucky 
attempts in german before Klexikon* (and I beleive German had or has a very 
good potential for such a project - demography and cultural ground favourable 
to children participation and their freedom of information). Yet it was in 
Dutch that Wikikids was launched early and is now quite big and active.


They may be a way to promote a existing (or to be launched) wiki encyclopedia 
for children, to "use the momentum of Wikipedia to make it easier to discover" 
as just said Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga, but somewhat different from the way 
they chooses on the Basque Wikipedia : That would be to let appear the kid 
equivalent article in the "In other projects" section.


Or maybe a very active work both in promotion and gathering a substantial set 
of core articles (picking the best/most usefull, most viewed articles from 
several kids wikis and Simple English Wikipedia, translating...)



*- the original "Wikikids" proposal as a Wikimedia project was made by german 
speaking wikipedians in early 2005 : 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikikids&oldid=89757 but was 
chilled down by the reactions on this list...

- Grundschulwiki was launched in december 2005, it still exists but is 
restricted to works done in primary classroom and therefore is not much 
developped : 

- a 2010 project ended as they were told to request a Simple German Wikipedia 
and then denied to open it: 

Meanwhile Wikikids.nl was launched in March 2006 and Vikidia in French in 
November 2006.



Envoyé: jeudi 23 juin 2022 à 21:15
De: "Neurodivergent Netizen" <idoh.idreamofhor...@gmail.com>
À: "Wikimedia Mailing List" <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Objet: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia

The English Wikipedia has a “plain language” wikipedia, the Simple English 
Wikipedia. It’s targeted not only towards children, but also towards people who 
aren’t fluent in English and/or have learning disabilities. A few “internet 
hack” memes say “If you can’t understand the Wikipedia article, change en to 
simple!” Basically, the English Wikipedia community has two very 
general-to-slightly-specialist encyclopedias.


Unfortunately, I’ve witnessed in years past that the Simple English Wikipedias’ 
activity level was, shall we say, wanting. I hope that’s changed; I suspect 
kids would enjoy learning to research for the purpose of writing on Simple 
before moving on to the so-called “real” English Wikipedia, but that might 
require some assistance that might not always exist offline. I think Simple 
would certainly be a good place to start making Wikipedia more accessible to 
8-10 year olds.



I dream of horses





On Jun 23, 2022, at 11:40 AM, Mathias Damour <mathias.dam...@gmx.fr> wrote:



 De: "WereSpielChequers" <werespielchequ...@gmail.com>

A childrens' encyclopaedia written for nine year olds would surely be very 
different than one written for thirteen year olds. And content that parents of 
fourteen year olds thought was age inappropriate in Alabama might be thought 
appropriate or even bowdlerised by parents of ten year olds in London.

In other words, are you sure that one single childrens' encyclopaedia is the 
answer to either the problem of reading age or age appropriate content?

There is one thing that is sure, that "one single childrens' encyclopaedia" is 
a great step for children (and often teenagers and older people) than having 
just Wikipedia available, and they love it.

Where I think that Wikipedia could and should change re this is in our use of 
jargon. To my mind a "general interest" english language encyclopaedia should 
be written in plain English. I suspect other language versions have similar 
issues.  Perhaps if we focussed more on this we would make it easier for those 
who wish to create childrens' versions.

Yet there is not realistic hopes that the language of Wikipedia will change to 
be easier. That wouldn't address the fact the articles on general subjects are 
among the longest ones.
It sounds a bit weird that a content for 12 yo would not fit well for a 8 yo, 
and then that Wikipedia could fit to children. The "reading level" of articles 
on Vikidia is not perfectly homogenous, nor their developpment is. They can be 
usefull for adult beginners on a subject just as a child can prefer Wikipedia 
on a subject he's fond of and allready informed.
That was developped in this post (in english):


De: "Ziko van Dijk"  <mailto:zvand...@gmail.com> <zvand...@gmail.com>

Ideally, one would have
* an encyclopedia for the very young, that parents read to them,
* an encyclopedia for the 8 to 13 year olds, the target group for many
of the existing kids' wikis,
* an encyclopedia for juvelines, 14 to 18 years
* an encyclopedia for everyone; this is what "regular Wikipedia" should be,
* an encyclopedia for specialists; this is what "regular Wikipedia"
actually develops into.
And maybe encylopedias for people with specific challenges such as

Most language don't have a single wiki encyclopedia for children or an 
under-developped one. So I guess that's not realistic nor wise to wish such a 
division in this work. So let's work on the allready allready launched ones ! 
(Especially the one of the Vikidia family of course ;) see 
https://www.vikidia.org/ )

You actually do not need millions of articles for a good encyclopedia, some 
thousand well written articles are enough.

Vikidia in French and Wikikids in Dutch are by far the biggest wiki 
encyclopedias for children, with about 35000 articles each. Yet young reader on 
the Vikidia's guestbook still ask for "more content", which certainly mean both 
enought developped articles (not just a few lines) and more subjects. So yes, 
we need, if not millions of articles, at least several dozens of thousands 
Of course, we see that (as everywhere) 20 % of the articles make more than 80 % 
of the pageviews. But you can't really guess in advance which subject will be 
in the top 20 %.

 De: "Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga" <galder...@hotmail.com>

About Txikipedia: the age range is 8-12, but is more 10-12 than 8-9. The 
problem is that some of the writers are 8-9 years old, so their content is 
quite simple.


When I read French Vikidia I think that most of the contents are still too 
difficult for 8-9 years old students, but French education system maybe more 
advanced in some issues. Or it might be that Vikidia is centered in 8-13 years 
old, and 13 years old readers are way better reading and understanding texts. 
Klexikon seems very suitable, but it's logical, since it is written by 
educators, and not children or whoever wants to write. When we make courses 
with university students who will be the next primary school teachers, they 
write longer articles, but not necessarily better. The main goal there is to 
explain things as easily as possible, and not granting anything for known. We 
advise them to write shorter sentences, without dependencies and to explain all 
technical concepts inline, if possible. Also, they normally add boxes of "did 
you know?" so they can add a layer for curious children.

Just as on Wikipedia, article don't have only one author. That makes them 
better, more accessible and accurate.

You can't just test an average child to write on such a wiki to tell if 
children and teenagers are able to participate to a wiki encyclopedia for 
several reasons : 

*       the 1% rule (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%25_rule) fully apply there 
(or less than 1%)
*       regular editors are few but very motivated,
*       they typically learn and are engaged for months and years, which is 
VERY different than having been trained to edit for one or two hours.

A 12 yo with 2 years of participation, or a 15 yo with 3 years of experience 
are often very valuables editors, either as writer of for maintenance and 
community tasks.

Adults as well have to learn to write on Vikidia, be they educators or not. 
Just as it is well know that a journalist or a scientist, which are supposed to 
be skilled is writing articles, often don't fit immediatly with the style that 
is expected on Wikipedia.

Mathias Damour

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