Hi again, There was a very quick follow up: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/17/podcasts/the-daily/the-online-search-wars-got-scary-fast.html
If you found the prior podcast interesting, you won't regret to check this one as well. Best! On Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 05:24 Ali Kia <alikia...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi. > Thank you for your cooperation. > > در تاریخ پنجشنبه ۱۶ فوریهٔ ۲۰۲۳، ۱۸:۱۸ The Cunctator <cuncta...@gmail.com> > نوشت: > >> This is almost definitely the case. >> >> On Mon, Feb 6, 2023, 2:39 AM Ilario Valdelli <valde...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> And this is a problem. >>> >>> If ChatGPT uses open content, there is an infringement of license. >>> >>> Specifically the CC-by-sa if it uses Wikipedia. In this case the >>> attribution must be present. >>> >>> Kind regards >>> >>> On Sun, 5 Feb 2023, 08:12 Peter Southwood, <peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> “Not citing sources is probably a conscious design choice, as citing >>>> sources would mean sharing the sources used to train the language models” >>>> This may be a choice that comes back to bite them. Without citing their >>>> sources, they are unreliable as a source for anything one does not know >>>> already. Someone will have a bad consequence from relying on the >>>> information and will sue the publisher. It will be interesting to see how >>>> they plan to weasel their way out of legal responsibility while retaining >>>> any credibility. My guess is there will be a requirement to state that the >>>> information is AI generated and of entirely unknown and untested >>>> reliability. How soon to the first class action, I wonder. Lots of money >>>> for the lawyers. Cheers, Peter. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Subhashish [mailto:psubhash...@gmail.com] >>>> *Sent:* 05 February 2023 06:37 >>>> *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List >>>> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: Chat GPT >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Just to clarify, my point was not about Getty to begin with. Whether >>>> Getty would win and whether a big corporation should own such a large >>>> amount of visual content are questions outside this particular thread. It >>>> would certainly be interesting to see how things roll. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But AI/ML is way more than just looking. Training with large models is >>>> a very sophisticated and technical process. Data annotation among many >>>> other forms of labour are done by real people. the article I had linked >>>> earlier tells a lot about the real world consequences of AI. I'm certain >>>> AI/ML, especially when we're talking about language models like ChatGPT, >>>> are far from innocent looking/reading. For starters, derivative of works, >>>> except Public Domain ones, must attribute the authors. Any provision for >>>> attribution is deliberately removed from systems like ChatGPT and that only >>>> gives corporations like OpenAI a free ride sans accountability. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Subhashish >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Feb 4, 2023, 4:41 PM Todd Allen <toddmal...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> I'm not so sure Getty's got a case, though. If the images are on the >>>> Web, is using them to train an AI something copyright would cover? That to >>>> me seems more equivalent to just looking at the images, and there's no >>>> copyright problem in going to Getty's site and just looking at a bunch of >>>> their pictures. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But it will be interesting to see how that one shakes out. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Todd >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Feb 4, 2023 at 11:47 AM Subhashish <psubhash...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Not citing sources is probably a conscious design choice, as citing >>>> sources would mean sharing the sources used to train the language models. >>>> Getty has just sued Stability AI, alleging the use of 12 million >>>> photographs without permission or compensation. Imagine if Stability had to >>>> purchase from Getty through a legal process. For starters, Getty might not >>>> have agreed in the first place. Bulk-scaping publicly visible text in >>>> text-based AIs like ChatGPT would mean scraping text with copyright. But >>>> even reusing CC BY-SA content would require attribution. None of the AI >>>> platforms attributes their sources because they did not acquire content in >>>> legal and ethical ways [1]. Large language models won't be large and >>>> releases won't happen fast if they actually start acquiring content >>>> gradually from trustworthy sources. It took so many years for hundreds and >>>> thousands of Wikimedians to take Wikipedias in different languages to where >>>> they are for a reason. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 1. https://time.com/6247678/openai-chatgpt-kenya-workers/ >>>> >>>> >>>> Subhashish >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Feb 4, 2023 at 1:06 PM Peter Southwood < >>>> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> From what I have seen the AIs are not great on citing sources. If they >>>> start citing reliable sources, their contributions can be verified, or not. >>>> If they produce verifiable, adequately sourced, well written information, >>>> are they a problem or a solution? >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> Peter >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Gnangarra [mailto:gnanga...@gmail.com] >>>> *Sent:* 04 February 2023 17:04 >>>> *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List >>>> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: Chat GPT >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I see our biggest challenge is going to be detecting these AI tools >>>> adding content whether it's media or articles, along with identifying when >>>> they are in use by sources. The failing of all new AI is not in its >>>> ability but in the lack of transparency with that being able to be >>>> identified by the readers. We have seen people impersonating musicians and >>>> writing songs in their style. We have also seen pictures that have been >>>> created by copying someone else's work yet not acknowledging it as being >>>> derivative of any kind. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Our big problems will be in ensuring that copyright is respected in >>>> legally, and not hosting anything that is even remotely dubious >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, 4 Feb 2023 at 22:24, Adam Sobieski <adamsobie...@hotmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Brainstorming on how to drive traffic to Wikimedia content from >>>> conversational media, UI/UX designers could provide menu items or buttons >>>> on chatbots' applications or webpage components (e.g., to read more about >>>> the content, to navigate to cited resources, to edit the content, to >>>> discuss the content, to upvote/downvote the content, to share the content >>>> or the recent dialogue history on social media, to request >>>> review/moderation/curation for the content, etc.). Many of these envisioned >>>> menu items or buttons would operate contextually during dialogues, upon the >>>> most recent (or otherwise selected) responses provided by the chatbot or >>>> upon the recent transcripts. Some of these features could also be made >>>> available to end-users via spoken-language commands. >>>> >>>> At any point during hypertext-based dialogues, end-users would be able >>>> to navigate to Wikimedia content. These navigations could utilize either >>>> URL query string arguments or HTTP POST. In either case, bulk usage data, >>>> e.g., those dialogue contexts navigated from, could be useful. >>>> >>>> The capability to perform A/B testing across chatbots’ dialogues, over >>>> large populations of end-users, could also be useful. In this way, >>>> Wikimedia would be better able to: (1) measure end-user engagement and >>>> satisfaction, (2) measure the quality of provided content, (3) perform >>>> personalization, (4) retain readers and editors. A/B testing could be >>>> performed by providing end-users with various feedback buttons (as >>>> described above). A/B testing data could also be obtained through data >>>> mining, analyzing end-users’ behaviors, response times, responses, and >>>> dialogue moves. These data could be provided for the community at special >>>> pages and could be made available per article, possibly by enhancing the >>>> “Page information” system. One can also envision these kinds of analytics >>>> data existing at the granularity of portions of, or selections of, >>>> articles. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Adam >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *From:* Victoria Coleman <vstavridoucole...@gmail.com> >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, February 4, 2023 8:10 AM >>>> *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> >>>> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: Chat GPT >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Christophe, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I had not thought about the threat to Wikipedia traffic from Chat GPT >>>> but you have a good point. The success of the projects is always one step >>>> away from the next big disruption. So the WMF as the tech provider for the >>>> mission (because first and foremost in my view that?s what the WMF is - as >>>> well as the financial engine of the movement of course) needs to pay >>>> attention and experiment to maintain the long term viability of the >>>> mission. In fact I think the cluster of our projects offers compelling >>>> options. For example to your point below on data sets, we have the amazing >>>> Wikidata as well the excellent work on abstract Wikipedia. We have >>>> Wikipedia Enterprise which has built some avenues of collaboration with big >>>> tech. A bold vision is needed to bring all of it together and build an MVP >>>> for the community to experiment with. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Victoria Coleman >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Feb 4, 2023, at 4:14 AM, Christophe Henner < >>>> christophe.hen...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> ?Hi, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On the product side, NLP based AI biggest concern to me is that it >>>> would drastically decrease traffic to our websites/apps. Which means less >>>> new editors ans less donations. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> So first from a strictly positioning perspective, we have here a major >>>> change that needs to be managed. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> And to be honest, it will come faster than we think. We are >>>> perfectionists, I can assure you, most companies would be happy to launch a >>>> search product with a 80% confidence in answers quality. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From a financial perspective, large industrial investment like this are >>>> usually a pool of money you can draw from in x years. You can expect they >>>> did not draw all of it yet. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Second, GPT 3 and ChatGPT are far from being the most expensive >>>> products they have. On top of people you need: >>>> >>>> * datasets >>>> >>>> * people to tag the dataset >>>> >>>> * people to correct the algo >>>> >>>> * computing power >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I simplify here, but we already have the capacity to muster some of >>>> that, which drastically lowers our costs :) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I would not discard the option of the movement doing it so easily. That >>>> being said, it would mean a new project with the need of substantial >>>> ressources. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Feb 4, 2023, at 9:30 AM, Adam Sobieski <adamsobie...@hotmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> ? >>>> >>>> With respect to cloud computing costs, these being a significant >>>> component of the costs to train and operate modern AI systems, as a >>>> non-profit organization, the Wikimedia Foundation might be interested in >>>> the National Research Cloud (NRC) policy proposal: >>>> https://hai.stanford.edu/policy/national-research-cloud . >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> "Artificial intelligence requires vast amounts of computing power, >>>> data, and expertise to train and deploy the massive machine learning models >>>> behind the most advanced research. But access is increasingly out of reach >>>> for most colleges and universities. A National Research Cloud (NRC) would >>>> provide academic and *non-profit researchers* with the compute power >>>> and government datasets needed for education and research. By democratizing >>>> access and equity for all colleges and universities, an NRC has the >>>> potential not only to unleash a string of advancements in AI, but to help >>>> ensure the U.S. maintains its leadership and competitiveness on the global >>>> stage. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> "Throughout 2020, Stanford HAI led efforts with 22 top computer science >>>> universities along with a bipartisan, bicameral group of lawmakers >>>> proposing legislation to bring the NRC to fruition. On January 1, 2021, the >>>> U.S. Congress authorized the National AI Research Resource Task Force Act >>>> as part of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2021. >>>> This law requires that a federal task force be established to study and >>>> provide an implementation pathway to create world-class computational >>>> resources and robust government datasets for researchers across the country >>>> in the form of a National Research Cloud. The task force will issue a final >>>> report to the President and Congress next year. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> "The promise of an NRC is to democratize AI research, education, and >>>> innovation, making it accessible to all colleges and universities across >>>> the country. Without a National Research Cloud, all but the most elite >>>> universities risk losing the ability to conduct meaningful AI research and >>>> to adequately educate the next generation of AI researchers." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> See also: [1][2] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> [1] >>>> https://www.whitehouse.gov/ostp/news-updates/2023/01/24/national-artificial-intelligence-research-resource-task-force-releases-final-report/ >>>> >>>> [2] >>>> https://www.ai.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/NAIRR-TF-Final-Report-2023.pdf >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> *From:* Steven Walling <steven.wall...@gmail.com> >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, February 4, 2023 1:59 AM >>>> *To:* Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> >>>> *Subject:* [Wikimedia-l] Re: Chat GPT >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Feb 3, 2023 at 9:47 PM Gerg? Tisza <gti...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Just to give a sense of scale: OpenAI started with a $1 billion >>>> donation, got another $1B as investment, and is now getting a larger >>>> investment from Microsoft (undisclosed but rumored to be $10B). Assuming >>>> they spent most of their previous funding, which seems likely, their >>>> operational costs are in the ballpark of $300 million per year. The idea >>>> that the WMF could just choose to create conversational software of a >>>> similar quality if it wanted seems detached from reality to me. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Without spending billions on LLM development to aim for a >>>> conversational chatbot trying to pass a Turing test, we could definitely >>>> try to catch up to the state of the art in search results. Our search >>>> currently does a pretty bad job (in terms of recall especially). Today's >>>> featured article in English is the Hot Chip album "Made in the Dark", and >>>> if I enter anything but the exact article title the typeahead results are >>>> woefully incomplete or wrong. If I ask an actual question, good luck. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Google is feeling vulnerable to OpenAI here in part because everyone >>>> can see that their results are often full of low quality junk created for >>>> SEO, while ChatGPT just gives a concise answer right there. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Menu_(2022_film) is one of the top >>>> viewed English articles. If I search "The Menu reviews" the Google results >>>> are noisy and not so great. ChatGPT actually gives you nothing relevant >>>> because it doesn't know anything from 2022. If we could just manage to >>>> display the three sentence snippet of our article about the critical >>>> response section of the article, it would be awesome. It's too bad that the >>>> whole "knowledge engine" debacle poisoned the well when it comes to a >>>> Wikipedia search engine, because we could definitely do a lot to learn from >>>> what people like about ChatGPT and apply to Wikipedia search. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, >>>> guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>>> and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>> Public archives at >>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/6OBPB7WNHKJQXXIBCK73SDXLE3DMGNMY/ >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-le...@lists.wikimedia.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, >>>> guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines >>>> and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l >>>> Public 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