On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 2:03 AM, theo10011 <de10...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I beg to differ Anirudh, the issue is that the newbies don't know of WP:HD
> or any other place was the reason I suggested the page.

Finding out about the help desk or simply asking for help is much
easier for a new user than looking for ideas cross-wiki.  A simple
welcome template contains instructions to ask for help without even
having to move from one's talk page.[1]

> By the same logic,
> If the newbies could ask their question on Help desk, they could also look
> up the same guidelines and the Noticeboards to see what they did wrong and
> complain appropriately, which would make the entire process redundant.

Newbies aren't expected to know each and every rule from the day they
join Wikipedia, you have more experienced users asking them to IAR.
IAR doesn't mean a free license to do whatever you want, but to learn
as you go.[2]

What would make the entire process redundant are administrators who
would be willing to give appropriate amount of attention to each and
every contentious issue (esp. those which involve using the blocking
tool).  Many new users complain of over-zealousness on the part of
long-term contributors, I can empathize with their position but cannot
completely shift the blame on to the janitors.

As the encyclopedia continues to grow so does the amount of data that
is churned on the project.  Administrators continually end up deleting
pages within moments of their creation, and get defensive when
questioned.  They block vandals without appropriate warnings and most
of the time such blocks go unchallenged because of the nature of the
edits (overt vandalism).  But sometimes, as it happens with the huge
amount of backlog, an administrator may perceive tenacious editing as
disruption and vandalism, and when this happens our problems begin.

Please go through the archives of the administrators' noticeboard and
you will find such issues have been discussed over and over again with
no conclusive solution to the problem.  Conflicts have been escalated
to the point where the Arbitration Committee has had to issue
sanctions on old hands resulting in burn out and retirement from the
project.  And you know what... I'd rather stand by a trusty old admin
in the lieu of hundreds of whiny newbies who didn't have anything
constructive to contribute anyway.

I understand that this may not be the optimal solution, but it's the
one that has worked for us for years.

> What
> I suggested was a centralized page where all the links that might be helpful
> to newbies would be collected together, where they can ask senior editors
> questions directly or look into issues for them.
> I suggested Meta for two reason- one to keep it off the English wiki since
> there is no shortage of similar places, and second most of the users there
> are very well-versed in policies and guidelines more than local wikis
> especially Indian Language Wikis, something of an "outside context" might be
> useful to newcomers.

Please follow through with your project but I don't see much use for
it from an English Wikipedia standpoint.  English Wikipedia had and
still has the best available resources to assist new users and help
them cope with conflicts.

> I agree with Srikanth, there is a cultural difference, besides a different
> language there is rather large repository of policies of guidelines that
> might seem daunting to newcomers, we want to provide access as easily as
> possible. We have met many wikimedians who want to get involved in the
> movement on meetups, mailing lists - this page would act as a first step
> page for all of them, we can refer them to it to read up and ask questions
> if they have issues. What I would like to see is, something similar to adopt
> a user program so that experienced editors could adopt and guide new comers.
> Regards

I am all for courteous dealings with new users, but no amount of
cajoling usually placates someone who has decided to game the

Please explain to me how cultural differences result in a breakdown of
communication to the extent that a user gets blocked for disruption?
In the immediate case, it appears to me that Yogesh Khandke handled
himself quite well (and has sufficiently proven that the blocks were
made out of process, except that he didn't' challenge the block
earlier).  I don't see how an Indian community-run service for new
users would have helped resolve the manner more equitably than a
single old-hand noticing an unjustified block.

I have no issues with community building exercises, but most of them
turn into cliques that outgrow their intended use.[4]

> Salmaan

[1] {{helpme}} on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Welcome
[2] #5 on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Five_pillars
([[Wikipedia:Five pillars]] - IAR.
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:GAME ([[WP:GAME]])
[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Esperanza


> On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 1:34 AM, Anirudh Bhati <anirudh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 11:48 PM, theo10011 <de10...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Interesting point Srikanth, we can address part of the issue.
>> > I propose something like "Don't bite the newcomers" page, pref. located
>> > on
>> > Meta where new Wikimedians especially the ones from India can ask
>> > question
>> > to more experienced editors. It would be along the lines of Admin
>> > noticeboard, RfC page in terms of structure but any experienced editor
>> > would
>> > be able to answer a newcomers question. They can watch their edit
>> > history
>> > and even promote our "adopt a user" feature by experienced editors.
>> > We can announce this page on the India Mailing list, newcomers at
>> > wiki-meetups, regularly for any new comers. For a centralized location I
>> > would suggest locating it on Meta considering the experienced user base
>> > and
>> > the multilingual community there. Any thoughts?
>> >
>> I wouldn't attribute this to cultural differences. Let's be clear on
>> something, it's not only users from India who complain about rogue
>> admins and editors.
>> [[w:en:WP:HD]] is still the best resource for new users to seek advice.
>> Creating a redundant page on meta serves no purpose.  The India
>> noticeboard is a responsive place to seek advice if the user finds
>> himself/herself embroiled in a dispute over India-related subjects.
>> I do understand that a significant number of new pages patrollers,
>> recent changes patrollers and some administrators are impatient with
>> new users and that leads to unnecessary escalation of conflict.
>> However, the underlying issue is much deeper and not exclusive for
>> editors from India.
>> anirudh
>> >
>> >
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