I strongly support and congratulate the efforts of Mumbai-Pune community in
planning & organizing the India Wiki conference this year. If I may speak on
behalf of the Bangalore community, till now we have no plans of holding any
such major event this year and would like to convey our heartfelt support
for the Mumbai event.

There have been lots of misunderstandings , tensions and confusions flying
around this list and I humbly appeal to all the stakeholders to join hands
and make this event a huge success. It is also imperative that the chapter ,
community and the Wikimedia India office to work together in the interests
of the Wikimedia movement in the country. I also request the community
members to be the actively part of the chapter and lead the chapter
efforts.

Wikimedia is also about free culture movement and we also have a unique
diverse cultural wiki community and it is natural to have differences but
let us "agree to disagree" when needed. I am sure the chapter may want to be
seen "less bureaucratic" in future while equally aligning with its own
responsibilities and charted goals.  Let us also realize that the chapter
needs our continued support and understanding.

This is a national mailing list and possibly such flame wars may cause many
leaving the list, so let us still keep this a very beautiful place :)

All the best wishes , Mumbai-Pune !

Regards
Tinu Cherian



On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 8:53 PM, <wheredevelsd...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>  Hi Arjuna,
>
> Thanks for your response. The issue here is time - and we dont have any of
> it. We are running against time for the logistics. For the scale of the
> conference we have planned, we should have had an Event Organising Committee
> in place by now and have started locking the logistics. If we are to host
> this we require ample time to ensure a successful event.
>
> We have made public our intention to host this conference way back in April
> and even requested people to volunteer for the Organising Committee and
> various sub-committees on this same mailing list last month. You yourself
> came to Pune Meetup 14 in May and were given a presentation on the
> preparations until then. The next we heard was only on this mailing list
> earlier this week. All through this the chapter was silent and no other
> community came forward with a rival bid. On the other hand, communities
> across India have come forward supporting us and we are grateful for that.
> Several people reverted to our volunteer appeal and several people pledged
> remote support.
>
> It is not that Mumbai/Pune are against any possible rival bid, it is just
> that time is against us at this point. We have done a lot of work this far
> which will all go down the drain if things are not firmed up ASAP. *We
> request that if there is anyone who wants to place a rival bid, they simply
> email this list with "A non binding expression of interest" within the next
> 24 hours.* We can then wait and give requisite time for you to formally
> place something - and there can be a fair evaluation of all the proposed
> hosts. If there isnt anyone else, let us not waste time and get going on
> where we should have been right now - off the black board and onto the
> ground. We have lost enough time as things stand. I hope this is fair enough
> for all parties concerned.
>
> Kind Regards,
> User:AroundTheGlobe
>
> > Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 16:02:08 +0530
> > From: arjunar...@googlemail.com
> > To: wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Community-Chapter Relations
>
> >
> > Hi Wikimedians,
> >
> >
> > Thanks Ashwin, for initiating the feedback thread on the communication
> > from the Chapter. As Chapter  starts engaging with the Community, I
> > look  this as a  positive sign to build the relationship
> > ('storming'[1] part of a typical team building process).
> >
> > Of course, there are whole lot of stuff that EC has initiated
> > (Donations, projects, City/Language SIG) and we look forward to the
> > feedback on that as well and request that the feedback be not colored
> > by the perception generated and shared on Wiki India Conference topic.
> >
> > Keep this discussion going, so that we can collect feedback for a day
> > or two and address the same after discussions in EC.
> >
> > Let me assure you, that we value all your feedback and  will  revert
> > to you  with further updates on the communication in few days time.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Arjuna Rao Chavala
> > President, Wikimedia Chapter
> > [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuckman%27s_stages_of_group_development
> > On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 11:03 AM, Ashwin Baindur
> > <ashwin.bain...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > The national chapter recently informed the community about its
> Membership and Community engagement plan -June 2011.
> > >
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2011-June/003346.html
> > > In that document, the regulatory framework for conduct of
> Wikiconferences was released.
> > > http://wiki.wikimedia.in/India_Wiki_Conference_Framework
> > > Shortly thereafter, a clarification was issued.
> > >
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2011-June/003378.html
> > > Members of the community must be puzzled at the need for clarification
> from the Chapter on the issues of its regulatory framework when there was no
> discussion online. This is because the recent announcement of the framework,
> in conjunction with other issues, led to the community believing that the
> chapter had forsaken it.
> > > A little history - the idea for a Wikiconference was mooted way back in
> March by the Mumbai community and they asked the Pune community to co-host
> it to which the Pune community agreed. As India now has a national chapter,
> we naturally asked for their support more than two months ago.  For more
> than two months they were silent. Yesterday, they responded saying that the
> community was invited to submit their proposal, duly modified as per the
> said framework, and resubmit it for consideration with other bids. The
> cavaliar treatment of the serious efforts put in to date by the communities
> and the contents of the Framework of Regulations were disturbing to the
> community.
> > > At the face off it, one may just consider the Regulatory Framework as
> just another logical and reasonable document, but its language, text and
> subtext upset the community, in light of Chapter's attitude.
> > > The first and over-riding issue was the type of language used and its
> indication of the relation between chapter and communities. We all know that
> the Wikimedia Foundation encourages national chapters so that the community
> and creation of knowledge by them is facilitated. However, the language
> herein clearly gives a message - that the Indian chapter is boss and all
> Indian wikimedian communities are subservient to it.
> > > While that is a great inequity in itself, the community was also
> aggrieved that the framework has been foisted on them without discussion,
> without any attempt to get them to participate and buy in into the plan,
> without community consensus and without any consideration of the community's
> interests. This feudalistic attitude is considered to be an anachronism in
> volunteer driven communities of the 21st Centuries especially in India. So,
> no matter whether the framework is good or bad, sensible or not, the
> approach to the community taken by the chapter is to be firmly objected to
> and resisted.
> > > The Mumbai & Pune community supports the chapter, and have defended the
> chapter on number of occasions in email discussions. Members of the two
> communities have enthusiastically joined the chapter once membership opened.
> A member of the Mumbai and a member of the Pune community are the first two
> members to join by NEFT and physical cheque. To the best of my knowledge 24
> members from Pune joined the chapter in response to Arjuna Rao Chavala's
> appeal for member ships when he came last month to our Pune meetup.
> > > We earnestly believe that India needs an active, sympathetic,
> facilitative and supportive chapter. We look forward to heartily cooperating
> with such a chapter - alas, the chapter's latest tune was nothing of that
> kind. It seemed to be indicative of wanting power and to dominate.
> > > The third issue, were the "black" provisions of the framework. Each of
> the sentences seemed to imply negative connotations for the community.
> > > To give you some examples of the "black" provisions -
> > > Example one - Finance
> > > The responsibilities of the Host city team included "Fund raising",
> whereas the corresponding responsibility of the Chapter Team was
> "Responsible for facilitating financial operations and accountability for
> finances for the event".
> > > The message conveyed was that the community was responsible for
> raiising funds but only the chapter was allowed to decide how it was spent.
> No commitment of raising monetary support was made by the chapter for the
> event.
> > > Example two - Logistics
> > > The responsibility for the "Host city team" is mentioned as being
> "responsible for City logistics in terms of Venue, local transportation,
> stay assistance". However, the city community was to be given no say in the
> decision-making i.e. organisation of the programme, guest list, expenditure
> etc. The OC head was to be some person of chapter Executive Committee. That
> meant, the community had to do the hard work but the chapter would take
> credit. If the conference succeeded, it was the chapter's moment of glory.
> Whereas if the conference failed, the communities would be blamed.
> > > Example three - Venue
> > > After three months of spade work by Mumbai-Pune, when no other city had
> shown any inclination to take up the project, the chapter thanked the city
> community for the "proposal", came up with this framework, asks the city to
> make changes as per the framework and resubmit it for consideration within
> two weeks or so. Then, all proposals/bids would be considered by the chapter
> and the decision communicated.
> > > For two months, the community waited with bated breath for the
> chapter's response and was floored when it eventually came. There were no
> emails of  encouragement, no saying "we support you", no saying "great job
> guys, lets give it to Mumbai-Pune this time, next time, cities can bid". The
> community, not surprisingly, were forced to construe such a response as lack
> of support by the chapter.
> > > So what was to be done? The community was furious at being treated this
> way. They could not acquiese to this kind of 'fatwa' type of decision-making
> by the chapter. It was felt that if the community accepted this state of
> affairs this time around, it would act as a precedent and set the tone for
> all future interactions between community and chapter.
> > > So, we indicated to the chapter informally through various people that
> this sort of thing just will not do. We were prepared for a confrontation on
> matter of principle. However, thanks to various third party
> back-of-the-scenes attempts, the chapter is now beginning to realise this. A
> member of the chapter Executive Committee has given a clarification. You can
> read it here -
> > >
> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2011-June/003378.html
> > > The community's demands are few and equitable.
> > > Firstly, treat us like equals and stakeholders. Amongst us, chapter
> will then be first among equals. The community will not accept any other
> form of relationship.
> > > The second request is always ask our opinion before issuing policy
> especially for a thing like Wikiconference which has not been conducted
> before. The chapter must be consultative and facilitative of the community.
> The community will not accept orders by fiat.
> > > Lastly, this present framework will not do. We need a framework which
> gives autonomy to the Organising Committee to successfully pull off an event
> of this scale and nature. While organising this Wikiconference, the
> community is willing to develop a sensible, practical framework which can be
> debated and finalised after the event is over. In this manner best practices
> and lessons learnt will be incorporated.
> > > We felt that you as a community member should know what was going on
> and what happened and how we responded to it. Our next step is to list the
> issues concerning how the Wikiconference should be conducted and discuss
> them on the list. At present, an active discussion on this is going on
> between Pune and Mumbai communities off-list. In the meantime, we invite the
> chapter to Mumbai where these issues can be discussed amicably face to face
> and resolved.
> > > We thank all those who spoke out in favour of the community.
> > > Please write back with your views and support as this concerns every
> one of us.
> > > Ashwin Baindur
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list
> > > Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
>
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