I like Wikilivres, was just wondering - has anyone tried to create a placeholder for an image/ text on commons or Wikisource with an external link to the file on Wikilivres (when said image or file is public domain outside the US but not within) - I guess the question is how to connect public domain work that cannot be hosted on US servers to Wikimedia, which is.

On Sunday 12 May 2013 03:01 PM, Yann Forget wrote:
There is already in Canada a server available for hosting content
which cannot be hosted on Wikimedia servers. I think this solution
should gather more support.
http://wikilivres.ca/ (previously wikilivres.info).

Regards,

Yann

2013/5/12 Achal Prabhala <aprabh...@gmail.com>:
Hi Balasankar,

The question you raise is a very important one. The solution, however, is
not likely to be to host content in India (I don't speak for the Wikimedia
Foundation, but there are sound legal reasons why all Wikimedia content is
hosted in the US; mostly liability risk and freedom of expression and this
is unlikely to change).

The default across Commons and Wikisource, the two projects that host the
bulk of public domain content (images, videos, sounds, books) in Wikimedia,
is the US copyright term - it's the only yardstick that matters for what
qualifies as public domain by virtue of being out of copyright. You are
absolutely right, however, in that there's a big difference btw US copyright
terms and those of other countries, for instance:

For photographs, while the binding limit (Berne/TRIPs) is 25 years from the
making of the work, India is life of photographer + 60 years after death,
and in the US it is life + 70.

For literary works, the binding limit (Berne/ TRIPs) is life + 50 years,
whereas in India it is life + 60, whereas in the US it is life + 70 or
120/95 if made on work for hire.

(The binding limit is the WTO mandated term that country members - US and
India and 150 others - have to follow. As you can see, typically, most
countries exceed the limit for reasons of their own, which they are allowed
to do, with the US exceeding in far greater amount than India.)

In short, there can be a difference of between 10 and 40 years between the
time a work goes into the public domain in a country with shorter terms than
the US (any number of countries in the non-Anglo-European world) and the US.
This seriously affects even 'Indian' works (where India is the first country
of publication) because of the copyright protection granted to such works in
the US, thus effectively placing them under copyright for our purposes
within Wikimedia long after they've gone in to the public domain in their
source country.

The case to consider here is Golan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golan_v._Holder

A summary of the US Supreme Court decision in this case is - US law trumps
international agreements, so the US copyright term holds within US
territory, and restores copyright protection to any works that have gone
into the public domain by virtue of a shorter copyright term in another
country. Because Wikimedia servers are based in the US, Golan applies to us.

But your question is an extremely pertinent one, and if we were to find
unusual solutions to it, they would seem to lie in:

1) Whether hosting on US servers for a global audience makes any difference,
since we do not serve readers only bound by US law (Wikimedia reader numbers
bear this out, ie US readership = minority percentage of whole) and whether
we specifically have anything special on the basis of which to mount some
kind of strategic litigation on the issue of allowing us to exploit the
shortest possible route to public domain anywhere in the world for all or
some of our readers.

2) Whether hosting on US servers but using publicly audited geolocation to
switch off for readers from IP addresses where the material in question is
still under copyright is a legally and operationally feasible workaround
(connected to whether Wikimedia Tech thinks this is both doable and worth
our while to do)

3) Whether, if all fails and there is no getting around this in any way,
Commons and Wikisource (if there is sufficient interest in those
communities) should be interested in looking at a way of allowing external
links to chapter-managed local sites from the US-served base to see the
material in question; and if this is something, say, the India chapter wants
and is willing to do, whether this route poses any legal risks.

In any case, I passed around your question to a few friends for comments and
suggestions - as well as to Geoff Brigham at the Wikimedia Foundation, who
is not too hopeful for a solution but is very receptive to looking into it
and getting back to us - and I'll tell you when I know something.

Meanwhile, if you have other ways of looking into creative solutions around
this problem (not at all easy to crack, but the benefits are significant) -
or if anyone else on this list does - you should.

Cheers,
Achal




On Friday 10 May 2013 10:20 PM, Balasankar Chelamattath wrote:

Hi Srikanth,
I didnt quite understand what you meant by example.
An example for a work which is in public domain in India and not in US -
Works by Changampuzha Krishnapillai (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changampuzha_Krishna_Pillai ).
He passed away in 1948, and hence it is 65 years after the author's death.
So the books are copyright-free in India as of now (in pubic domain).
But they

were not published before 1923
were not in the public domain in India as of 1 January 1996 ( because
criteria of "60 years after author's death" not satisfied on 1996)

Hence they are not in public domain according to US Laws. So we cannot store
them in US servers.

The main problem is India considers copyright based on date of author's
death and US does it based on date of publication.

Regards,
Balasankar C



2013/5/10 Srikanth Ramakrishnan <srik.r...@wikimedia.in>
Hi Balasankar,
Can you point out specific instances and show when and where the book or
publication was first published? If the works are still copyrighted in
India, then they should be copyrighted in the US as well, generally
speaking. The term India awards to creators is lesser than the one provided
in the US under copyright laws.
Regards,


On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 10:31 PM, Balasankar Chelamattath
<c.balasan...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,
As most of you know, the Indian copyright law says that a book gets
relieved of copyright after 60 years from the author's death. But this is
not the case with US Law. As given here , of all the works published outside
US, only those published before 1923 are directly in the public domain. The
ones published between 1923 and 1977 without compliance to the US
formalities will be in the public domain only if they are in the public
domain in their source country as of 1 January 1996. Almost all the other
categories of published works will not be in the public domain until 95
years after publishing.

This induces a confusion and when looked in a legal perspective, most of
the books in Indian Wikisources, are still not in public domain and hence
must be removed. This makes a huge negative impact on the hard work done by
contributors. Their contributions are wasted which may cause them to stop
contributing. In short, this may be a negative impact on Wikimedia's image
in the society.

The only solution to this problem is to host the servers of Indian
Wikimedia services in India, so that the data we upload is stored under
Indian Laws. Can Wikimedia India Chapter do anything on this? We can plan
and conduct a fundraiser in India to raise money for the hosting expenses.

Please consider this issue with maximum priority as it involves legal
procedures and related headaches.

Regards,
Balasankar C
https://ml.wikisource.org/wiki/User:Balasankarc
Regards,
Balasankar C


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