Hi David,

On Sunday 12 May 2013 07:33 PM, David Cuenca wrote:
Hi Achal,

For those cases there is a Wikisource clone called Wikilivres, whose server
is in Canada and it is operated by a Canadian citizen.

Thank you - I've seen it, and think it's great.

It is not very fast, but it serves as storage for such cases since the
Canadian copyright law is quite permissive in that regard (50 years after
author/translator death).
Then you can link the works from the Wikisource author page to the work
page in Wikilivres as some Wikisources do.

So while I'm glad there's a relatively central source for such things, I guess there'd be no problem hosting such content on Indian servers, say, for work that's gone into the public domain on the basis of Indian copyright law. My earlier email (and the originating question) was to how to mesh Wikimedia Commons and Wikisource with such work - and whether we could. Hence the interest in the law and its workarounds.

If you have time, take also a look to the proposed improvements for
Wikisource. Thanks!

This looks great, and I was wondering if the last point on the list (working with other entities) also includes finding a way to placehold works that have gone out of copyright in other countries, and are hosted on, say, Wikilivres. That is, for people who consider themselves to be working on Wikisource, and are dealing with such works, is there anything you can offer them even if they have to host elsewhere?

David  ---User:Micru

On Sun, May 12, 2013 at 5:27 AM, Achal Prabhala <aprabh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Of relevance here: http://www.publicdomainday.**

-------- Original Message --------
Subject:        Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Wikimedia Servers and Copyright
Date:   Sun, 12 May 2013 14:51:27 +0530
From:   Achal Prabhala <aprabh...@gmail.com>
To:     Wikimedia India Community list <wikimediaindia-l@lists.**
wikimedia.org <wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>>

Hi Balasankar,

The question you raise is a very important one. The solution, however, is
not likely to be to host content in India (I don't speak for the Wikimedia
Foundation, but there are sound legal reasons why all Wikimedia content is
hosted in the US; mostly liability risk and freedom of expression and this
is unlikely to change).

The default across Commons and Wikisource, the two projects that host the
bulk of public domain content (images, videos, sounds, books) in Wikimedia,
is the US copyright term - it's the only yardstick that matters for what
qualifies as public domain by virtue of being out of copyright. You are
absolutely right, however, in that there's a big difference btw US
copyright terms and those of other countries, for instance:

For photographs, while the binding limit (Berne/TRIPs) is 25 years from
the making of the work, India is life of photographer + 60 years after
death, and in the US it is life + 70.

For literary works, the binding limit (Berne/ TRIPs) is life + 50 years,
whereas in India it is life + 60, whereas in the US it is life + 70 or
120/95 if made on work for hire.

(The binding limit is the WTO mandated term that country members - US and
India and 150 others - have to follow. As you can see, typically, most
countries exceed the limit for reasons of their own, which they are allowed
to do, with the US exceeding in far greater amount than India.)

In short, there can be a difference of between 10 and 40 years between the
time a work goes into the public domain in a country with shorter terms
than the US (any number of countries in the non-Anglo-European world) and
the US. This seriously affects even 'Indian' works (where India is the
first country of publication) because of the copyright protection granted
to such works in the US, thus effectively placing them under copyright for
our purposes within Wikimedia long after they've gone in to the public
domain in their source country.

The case to consider here is Golan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**
Golan_v._Holder <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golan_v._Holder>

A summary of the US Supreme Court decision in this case is - US law trumps
international agreements, so the US copyright term holds within US
territory, and restores copyright protection to any works that have gone
into the public domain by virtue of a shorter copyright term in another
country. Because Wikimedia servers are based in the US, Golan applies to us.

But your question is an extremely pertinent one, and if we were to find
unusual solutions to it, they would seem to lie in:

1) Whether hosting on US servers for a global audience makes any
difference, since we do not serve readers only bound by US law (Wikimedia
reader numbers bear this out, ie US readership = minority percentage of
whole) and whether we specifically have anything special on the basis of
which to mount some kind of strategic litigation on the issue of allowing
us to exploit the shortest possible route to public domain anywhere in the
world for all or some of our readers.

2) Whether hosting on US servers but using publicly audited geolocation to
switch off for readers from IP addresses where the material in question is
still under copyright is a legally and operationally feasible workaround
(connected to whether Wikimedia Tech thinks this is both doable and worth
our while to do)

3) Whether, if all fails and there is no getting around this in any way,
Commons and Wikisource (if there is sufficient interest in those
communities) should be interested in looking at a way of allowing external
links to chapter-managed local sites from the US-served base to see the
material in question; and if this is something, say, the India chapter
wants and is willing to do, whether this route poses any legal risks.

In any case, I passed around your question to a few friends for comments
and suggestions - as well as to Geoff Brigham at the Wikimedia Foundation,
who is not too hopeful for a solution but is very receptive to looking into
it and getting back to us - and I'll tell you when I know something.

Meanwhile, if you have other ways of looking into creative solutions
around this problem (not at all easy to crack, but the benefits are
significant) - or if anyone else on this list does - you should.


On Friday 10 May 2013 10:20 PM, Balasankar Chelamattath wrote:

Hi Srikanth,
I didnt quite understand what you meant by example.
An example for a work which is in public domain in India and not in US -
Works by Changampuzha Krishnapillai ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**
He passed away in 1948, and hence it is 65 years after the author's
death. So the books are copyright-free in India as of now (in pubic domain).
But they

  1. were not published before 1923
  2. were not in the public domain in India as of 1 January 1996 (
     because criteria of "60 years after author's death" not satisfied
     on 1996)

Hence they are not in public domain according to US Laws. So we cannot
store them in US servers.

The main problem is India considers copyright based on date of author's
death and US does it based on date of publication.

Balasankar C

2013/5/10 Srikanth Ramakrishnan <srik.r...@wikimedia.in <mailto:

     Hi Balasankar,
     Can you point out specific instances and show when and where the
     book or publication was first published? If the works are still
     copyrighted in India, then they should be copyrighted in the US as
     well, generally speaking. The term India awards to creators is
     lesser than the one provided in the US under copyright laws.

     On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 10:31 PM, Balasankar Chelamattath
     <c.balasan...@gmail.com <mailto:c.balasan...@gmail.com**>> wrote:

         Hi all,
         As most of you know, the Indian copyright law says that a book
         gets relieved of copyright after 60 years from the author's
         death. But this is not the case with US Law. As given here
         , of all the works published outside US, only those published
         before 1923 are directly in the public domain. The ones
         published between 1923 and 1977 without compliance to the US
         formalities will be in the public domain only if they are in
         the public domain in their source country as of 1 January
         1996. Almost all the other categories of published works will
         not be in the public domain until 95 years after publishing.

         This induces a confusion and when looked in a legal
         perspective, most of the books in Indian Wikisources, are
         still not in public domain and hence must be removed. This
         makes a huge negative impact on the hard work done by
         contributors. Their contributions are wasted which may cause
         them to stop contributing. In short, this may be a negative
         impact on Wikimedia's image in the society.

         The only solution to this problem is to *host the servers of
         Indian Wikimedia services in India*, so that the data we
         upload is stored under Indian Laws. Can Wikimedia India
         Chapter do anything on this? We can plan and conduct a
         fundraiser in India to raise money for the hosting expenses.

         Please consider this issue with maximum priority as it
         involves legal procedures and related headaches.

         Balasankar C
         Balasankar C

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     Wikimedia Chapter [India]

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