Hey Ron,

  What would be the cost to setup the link you talked about in this note?  Is 
there more operators in our area to split the cost, could we find some local 
business or others to buy a block Of bandwith?   J ust some thoughts....



Dave Ellis
Whisp LLC
--------------------------
Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: WISPA General List <wireless@wispa.org>
Sent: Fri Aug 05 20:45:04 2005
Subject: Re: [WISPA] 6 foot 6ghz antenna rule

I have some experience at 6, 11, 13, 18 & 23 GHz, more at 6, 
11 &13.  These were all carrier links never used a 6' dish 
unless it was a short path, less than 8 mi., usually 6 or 
less.  WE built 40 dB fade margin into every path.  tried to 
keep the radiated signal beem as narrow as possible, larger 
antennas, greater gain, they don't burn out.  Downside is 
stiffer towers, very expensive.

However, at 6 and 11 you can get 672 Mb/s and that's good.  I 
don't have the money right now or I would have a two hop 
system to Southfield MI where a meg is around 100-125.

My point, the licensed spectrum is excellent, no 
interference, and w/ enough fade margin it rocks.

Lonnie and Marlon - I support everything they say, nearly.  
We need to use whatever we can get our hands on, that lifts 
our advantage.

So keep it up guys.

---- Original message ----
>Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 17:03:55 -0700
>From: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] 6 foot 6ghz antenna rule  
>To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
>
>Last I heard a guy could get a Harris system (both ends, 
just radios) for a 
>shade under $20k.  Might be a bit lower now as it's been a 
couple of years. 
>For a 45 meg system that's pretty high by today's standards.
>
>Let me say this again guys.  We're talking LICENSED bands 
here. 
>Interference isn't an issue no matter what antennas etc. are 
used.  If you 
>get interference on YOUR band you can make the other guy 
stop.  It's just 
>that simple.
>
>I honestly see few down sides to this idea.
>
>I'd sure like to see more of the 300 or so companies here 
chime in.  So far 
>it's looking like 2 to 1 that we do nothing.  I must admit 
I'm more than a 
>bit shocked.
>
>Marlon
>(509) 982-2181                                   Equipment 
sales
>(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)                    Consulting 
services
>42846865 (icq)                                    And I run 
my own wisp!
>64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
>www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
>www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
>Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 1:46 PM
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] 6 foot 6ghz antenna rule
>
>
>> Marlon and Lonnie,
>>
>> First Off, Lonnie I fully agree with your point that we 
should not suggest 
>> rules that discourage good design or make it to easy to do 
poor designs.
>>
>> However, saying we don't need more spectrum is rediculous, 
expecially in 
>> these urban areas with lots of competition. We need to 
gain access to 
>> every ounce of spectrum that we can.
>>
>> I FULLY agree with Marlon, that it would be a GREAT idea 
to find a way to 
>> have 6 Ghz more usable for us.  It is factual that the 6 
foot antenna 
>> requirement makes it near impossible for most WISPs to use 
the band cost 
>> effectively.  I personally am effected by this and could 
have need for the 
>> band.  However doing away with the large antenna rule all 
togeather I 
>> think would be a mistake. A PtP band with safety rules is 
advantageous. 
>> I'd suggest asking to modify the rules to the extent 
necessary to make it 
>> usable for us.  For example, what if the min antenna size 
requirement was 
>> reduced down to a 3 ft dish?  Thats still down to around 5 
degrees, and 
>> pretty easy getting approval for a 3 ft dish.
>>
>> Marlon, whats the most cost effective 6 Ghz radios on the 
market today, 
>> excluding the antennas? Just so I understand the ball park 
we are talking 
>> about. When you say Licenced is still twice the cost, that 
doesn't mean 
>> much unless you identify wether you were talking about 
unlicenced redline 
>> or Trango :-)
>>
>> Tom DeReggi
>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "Lonnie Nunweiler" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" 
>> <wireless@wispa.org>
>> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 11:50 AM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 6 foot 6ghz antenna rule
>>
>>
>>>I think you guys are wrong on this.  This is still a ptp 
band and it's 
>>>licensed.  So interference issues can be dealt with.
>>>
>>> As for links that are not correctly aimed.  Why in the 
world would we 
>>> want to give up on what could be a very useful rule 
change just because 
>>> some minority (probably a very small minority) will 
likely screw up?
>>>
>>> Think, instead about how nice it would be if the 
manufacturers could 
>>> modify today's relatively cheap 5 gig radios to do 6 
gig.  It's not all 
>>> that much of a leap.  But today MANY of you couldn't use 
that gear 
>>> because you'd never be able to mount the antennas.  Or 
because it's 
>>> licensed gear it's still nearly twice the cost of 
unlicensed.
>>>
>>> It's easy to come up with reasons not to make changes.  A 
man once told 
>>> me that if no one ever changed we'd still all be eating 
with our fingers. 
>>> Your points are valid but I don't think they are likely 
enough to happen 
>>> that it'll matter.  Or we can take steps now to deal with 
those issues. 
>>> Again, it's a licensed band, interference isn't really an 
issue.  You 
>>> have protection against that.
>>>
>>> I've got a customer in Fresno that's got no place to go 
with 2.4 or 900. 
>>> He's using VERY high end radios in the 5 gig bands.  Even 
the big boy 
>>> toys won't work well anymore.  Even ptp links.  He's 
getting by but it's 
>>> getting much harder all of the time.  He needs the 6 gig 
band to pull 
>>> some ptp links around but can't use them because of the 
antenna size 
>>> issue.
>>>
>>> And lets not forget about the cost part of the mix.  6' 
antennas are 
>>> listing for $1800 in the EC cat without a raydome.  
That's for a good 
>>> Radio Waves unit, but still.
>>>
>>> I really can't see a down side to trying that comes 
anywhere near the 
>>> potential upside.  I see a few that don't think it's a 
good thing.  Do 
>>> the rest of you agree with that?  I happen to think that 
anything that 
>>> gives us more flexibility without letting the bad people 
out there do bad 
>>> things is a good thing to try to do.
>>>
>>> Marlon
>>> (509) 982-2181                                   
Equipment sales
>>> (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)                    Consulting 
services
>>> 42846865 (icq)                                    And I 
run my own wisp!
>>> 64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
>>> www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
>>> www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Lonnie Nunweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2005 9:28 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] 6 foot 6ghz antenna rule
>>>
>>>
>>> APC is useless if the antennas are not aimed properly or 
the distance
>>> is excessive for the antenna gain.  These conditions will 
cause the
>>> transmitters to pump out full volume, and if the antennas 
are your
>>> lower gain variety that means spraying noise everywhere.
>>>
>>> I would recommend leaving the nice tight 6 foot dishes.  
That simple
>>> rule keeps the band clean for those long distance shots, 
instead of
>>> polluting it for close in shots.
>>>
>>> You guys have to start asking yourself what you are doing 
wrong if you
>>> continually need more bands.  The growing trend to higher 
power and
>>> wide beam antennas has to stop.  We are now doing a shot 
with 3 foot
>>> antennas and the CM9 Atheros radios in the 5 GHz band 
that is just
>>> over 52 miles and pulling -71 to -77 dB (variance through 
the day),
>>> yet I see people lining and almost drooling for the 400 
mW high power
>>> cards.
>>>
>>> In short, most guys have little RF knowledge and they 
naturally take
>>> the easy way.  I would expect to see 400 mW cards and 
patch antennas
>>> if the rules get changed as you are proposing.
>>>
>>> I say that is a mistake.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Lonnie
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8/4/05, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> For those that don't know, the 6 gig band is licensed 
ptp only.  It's a
>>>> pretty cheap license and you can get a LOT of throughput 
for very long
>>>> distances.
>>>>
>>>> For short (less than 50 miles :-) the 6' antenna 
requirement often kills 
>>>> the
>>>> deal because of size limits on what towers can handle.  
Or the building
>>>> owner doesn't want such large antennas etc.
>>>>
>>>> Certainly for something that just shoots a mile or three 
up the road 
>>>> it's a
>>>> tough rule to deal with.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not exactly sure how to go about it but I've got the 
name of the 
>>>> person
>>>> at the FCC that'll help us if we'd like to request a 
rule change.
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to suggest that we push for elimination of the 
6' antenna rule 
>>>> for
>>>> the 6 gig band.  If people are worried about undue 
interference in the 
>>>> band
>>>> due to the wider beam antennas we could toss out an APC 
(automatic power
>>>> control) requirement to use smaller antennas.
>>>>
>>>> Thoughts?
>>>> Marlon
>>>> (509) 982-2181                                   
Equipment sales
>>>> (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)                    Consulting 
services
>>>> 42846865 (icq)                                    And I 
run my own wisp!
>>>> 64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
>>>> www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
>>>> www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Lonnie Nunweiler
>>> Valemount Networks Corporation
>>> http://www.star-os.com/
>>> -- 
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
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Ron Wallace
Hahnron, Inc.
220 S. Jackson St.
Addison, MI 49220

Phone:  (517) 547-8410
Mobile:  (517) 605-4542
e-mail:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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