Charles, The other "advantage" I have been told about Nstreme is it incorporates the equivalent of ARQ into the protocol. The other hidden advantage is it makes it impossible for people to sniff the air for my signals unless they are using another MT with Nstreme box. :) Travis Microserv Charles Wu wrote: Hi John, Right or wrong, in the context of throughput efficiency, the documentation I have seen regarding N-stream leads me to believe that frame concatenation is the main method utilized by the protocol. Would you care to expand/enlighten further (I am sure there are a lot of other inquisitive types like me who like to know how the insides of their "black box" ticks =)-Charles P.S. -- I think you took my comments out of context -- I am by no means implying that Mikrotik is a "bad" solution -- in fact, I personally happen to like it a lot ------------------------------------------- CWLab Technology Architects http://www.cwlab.com -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of John Tully Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2006 1:30 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] frame size and fps - was OT: about 70Mbps for under $ 6K Charles, Usually I don't reply to 'opinions' like this. But, you have written things that you know nothing about and acted as if you are an authority on it. Concerning our Atheros wireless support. We were one of the first companies to ever support the Atheros for WISP systems in year 2000, we supported the AR5000 5GHz only card. Before that we supported the RadioLAN in 5GHz. We have written our drivers from the datasheet up. If you take a close look, you will see allot of wireless features that are unique -- such as dual Nstreme, wireless sniffer, WPA2 with local keys... It is up too the customers to decide how good they think the system is. John www.mikrotik.com At 01:16 AM 6/22/2006, you wrote:Hi Stephen, Regarding performance gains, it is worth defining what is meant by that term, as it can be vague and extremely misleading For example, if my solution required a router, the fact that Mikrotik had built in routing, while Alvarion did not, could be interpreted just as much as being a "performance gain" as Alvarion being (according to Tom D) more "interference resistant" than Mikrotik In our context, I was referring to specifically the wireless context>from a wireless standpoint, Mikrotik hasn't done anything IMOextraordinary (at least they have HAL access though =) -- testing raw aggregate throughput on Mikrotik point-to-point systems yields generally similar throughput and packet per second numbers as "stock" 11a solutions -- now Nstream does offer some nifty features, but those are more upper MAC related (e.g., polling to solve contention-based MAC allocation) This isn't meant to say that Mikrotik has a bad wireless driver, rather, IMO, Mikrotik's value-add is more its integration of multiple features (that many other products don't support) On the other hand, others, like Alvarion, Trango and Star-OS (we haven't finished testing Star-OS yet) -- have spent more effort diving into the HAL and RF hardware portion (in the case more so for Alvarion & Trango than Star-OS, which still utilizes cheap(er) off-the-shelf mini-PCIs) to optimize Rf & throughput performance of their Atheros based systems On a 11a chipset, Trango gets ~40 Mb, Alvarion gets ~30 Mb (though this may be changing w/ their new v4.0) and StarOS *supposedly* gets ~30 Mb That said, then there's the question of user need -- am I willing to sacrifice an additional 20-30% bandwidth efficiency and save additional $$$$ in exchange for having a lot of other built-in nifty and useful features? -Charles ------------------------------------------- CWLab Technology Architects <http://www.cwlab.com/> http://www.cwlab.com -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Stephen Patrick Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 2:45 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] frame size and fps - was OT: about 70Mbps for under $ 6K Hi there, Not detracting from this great debate, but I'd have to make some Mikrotik comments at this point. We use their OS in our radios and the "end product" we have on the market does out-perform several well-known brands in terms of many parameters including throughput, stability and RX sensitivity. The "extras" (essentials for some customers) i.e. L3 features, wireless extensions, security add huge value and reduce total network cost as "extra boxes" suddenly vanish. Shameless plug, we not only offer completed products with warranty but training and full tech support (not the "e-mail us" variety: real people to speak to, on-site presence when it matters, etc). Of course Mikrotik "performance gains" might not apply if you were to take a "DIY approach": performance can be terrible on the wrong hardware, tech support absent and you wouldn't have vital (legally required) certifications either. But as a vendor having built and shipped wireless products that use RouterOS and hearing the (cynical and wireless savvy) customer feedback saying consistently "performance better than Brand X" even comparing a simple L2 wireless bridge then I'd have to voice support for the OS. Sure do compare with Star-OS and others; or a real DIY: build it from bare hardware and FreeBSD/Linux with WiFi drivers or whatever... but as this thread came from "vendor products" I thought it worth chipping in - just my £0.01's worth. Regards Stephen CableFree Solutions www.cablefreesolutions.com -----Original Message----- From: Charles Wu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 20 June 2006 20:15 To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] frame size and fps - was OT: about 70Mbps for under $ 6K Hi Tom, Not to add another "chink" to your debate -- but it is worth noting that Mikrotik is more of a "jack of all trades" solution (they do routing, hotspot, etc) than a wireless solution While they do an ok job w/ wireless, IMO, their strength is more the convenience coming from the integration of multiple packages and its flexibility rather than the performance of any single feature If you're looking at purely a "wireless" solution (in this "do-it-yourself" genre) -- you need to include Star-OS / Ikarus in your evaluation (butthen,documentation gets a bit sparse there...) -Charles ------------------------------------------- CWLab Technology Architects http://www.cwlab.com -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, June 19, 2006 5:37 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] frame size and fps - was OT: about 70Mbps for under $ 6K Paul, Although many have reported very high speeds with Mikrotik. Our live tests in noisy environments (wether accepted as accurate or not) showed we were not able to get the peak speeds out of Mikrotik where we could get them from Alvarion. Our comparative tests were done with the Alvarion ver 3 firmware (not 4 yet). The Alvarion speeds that we got were right on the numbers with the speeds test Alvarion tech support sent us. Actually our tested speeds were a bit higher in some some cases. (Take note we only got accurate speeds when we hard set modulation to optimal (picked the best one for the situation) modulation for testing). I do not mean this as a negative comment on Mikrotik. Our competition to Alvarion is NOT Trango, Trango does not yet have a 20 mbps product for PtMP. We look at our Trango as the best choice to tackle the worse noisy environments (for us almost everywhere :-) Our competition for Alvarion is actually Mikrotik. Mikrotik probably has the single highest value from a feature cost perspective. Why pay Alvarion price, when Mikrotik can do almost the same thing at a fraction of the cost. Mikrotik has changed this market and forced competing vendors to look at how to be more competitive. Mikrotik is doing what Trango did 4 years ago to drive the price down. (I'd argue that Trango is still doing it also). It will be real interesting to see how Alvarion performs side by side to Mikrotik. The initial look show to me that Alvarion adds significant features that make it the premium choice, possibly the leader in OFDM today, if price not part of the consideration. However, Mikrotik's flexibilty and price clearly will keep them a major player for many WISPs. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Hendry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org> Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 3:45 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] frame size and fps - was OT: about 70Mbps for under $ 6KAre these figures in the lab? I have seen similar with a Mikrotik/N-Streme solution. -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: 16 June 2006 19:57 To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] frame size and fps - was OT: about 70Mbps for under $ 6K So I have more data for you Matt I just received about what firmware 4.0 delivers in terms of frame sizes and what it can mean to the business case. Remember, this is multipoint, not PtP. All Mbps numbers are NET throughput: Frame size Upstream Mbps/FPS Downstream Mbps/FPS 64 32.18/47893 40.29/59952 128 34.7/29308 43.79/36982 256 37.68/17065 45.03/20392 512 38.41/9025 45.51/10693 1024 37.02/4432 44.82/5366 1280 38.93/3743 45.99/4422 1518 36.69/2982 44.63/3627 This is a dramatic improvement, first in terms of net throughput the numbers are huge and I am pretty sure no other PMP system can get close to them. But the main accomplishment is a total leveling of capacity regardless oftheframe size. This results in much higher predictability and ability to capacity plan. This takes net throughput over 700% higher using small 64bit frame than the previous version. Frankly it really is an exceptional achievement that will enable operators to offer very high value services even to large enterprise. With this version of BreezeACCESS VL anoperatorcould sell an 8 voice lines/6Mbps of data to 20 enterprise customers in a single sector with a 5:1 over subscription with a voice MOS of 4.0 or higher. And with a SOHO type service like 2 voice lines and 3Mbps of data you could have 160 customers PER sector at a 20:1 over subscription. That will produce some exceptional ARPU. Patrick Leary AVP Marketing Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -----Original Message----- From: Matt Liotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 6:47 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] OT: about 70Mbps for under $6K Patrick Leary wrote:Matt, to further your comments that you see WISPs providing layer 2transortfor carriers.We have multiple CLECs and non-CLECs buying layer 2 transport from us now. All are used to buy alternative access from fiber providers and therefore fixed wireless was a naturally next step. Further, almost all indicated they would have done it sooner, but the fixed wireless companies they approached weren't willing to offer them layer 2 transport.How about VoIP? How many of you consider VoIP to be an important part of your service future as a WISP? If so, how do you plan to support since it cannot be done decently with the other popular 5GHz solutions. That's not my opinion so much as the opinion of many larger Trango and Motorola WISPs I have been talking to lately.We are doing a significant amount of VoIP now. We have VoIP customers running on top of both Trango and Canopy radios. Canopy is a significantly better solution for VoIP since we can properly prioritize voice with Canopy, while we cannot with Trango. We also wholesale VoIP to other operators and help them --if they require it-- with getting their network ready to support VoIP.If a key goal of WISPs is growing ARPU, what are WISPs plans for doing that with whatever your current technology permits?I believe VoIP is the number one way to grow ARPU and the fact that we bundle VoIP is why I believe we have one of the highest ARPUs in the industry. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ******************************************************************** ** ****** ************* This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals &computerviruses (191).*********************************************************************** ****************** ******************************************************************** ** ****** ******** This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals &computerviruses(42).*********************************************************************** ************* -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. 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