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>-----Original Message-----
>From: Tom DeReggi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 11:22 AM
>To: 'WISPA General List'
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Outsourced installations
>
>Until, the IRS decides that they can not be considered a contractor, because 
>they do not do work for other people, and are not solely in control of how a 
>job gets done.
>To do it legal, its pretty important that installer's company becomes 
>Incorporated or LLC.  Once they do that, its hard to keep control of what they 
>do, and you loose benefits of Employing.
>Benefits of employing, does that exist ? :-)
>
>I guess the truth is, can you find installers willing to give up benefits of 
>being an employee, and still be available when you need them like an employee?

>>> If you pay them well and give them enough work so they don't starve....

John

>
>Tom DeReggi
>RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: Rick Smith
>  To: 'WISPA General List'
>  Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 7:27 PM
>  Subject: RE: [WISPA] Outsourced installations
>
>
>  the answer is hire a company to do installations for you.  if your employee 
> just happens to own that company, well, oh well…
>
>
>
>  It’s all invoices.   Pay them as normal, and you don’t need to worry about 
> taxes, etc.  Your employee (or sub’d company J…) does that on their own.
>
>
>
>  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
>  Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 5:28 PM
>  To: WISPA General List
>  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Outsourced installations
>
>
>
>  Where the problems come in are, that paying someone peice rate does NOT 
> NEGATE the requirement to pay overtime for Employees.
>
>  Nor does it Negate the IRS's definition of what an EMployee is and a 
> contractor is.
>
>
>
>  You have to restrict employees to work less than 40 hours or prepair to pay 
> time and a half for your peice rate.  If an employee works 60 hours, and 
> completes three installs at in that week, at a peice rate of $100 each you 
> would pay the employee.....
>
>
>
>  $300 / 60 hours = $5 per hour. Overtime (20 hours) would be paid on $100 of 
> the pay.  Addtional over time pay (half time) would be $50.
>
>  Total paycheck would be $350.
>
>
>
>  If it took them 60 hours to just get two installs done, they would be less 
> than the minimum wage.
>
>
>
>  So there are two requirements....
>
>  1) You must have a minimum pay, calcuated on the total number of hours that 
> THEY record working.
>
>  2) Must figure out someones average hourly rate on a weekly basis. This 
> complicates the accounting duties, and forces the account to custom pay each 
> employee each month.
>
>
>
>  Two problems that can occur are...
>
>
>
>  What if you want to pay an employee well, because they are really doing a 
> good job, and then one week they decide to go really slow?  You end up paying 
> someone a huge amount of overtime unexpectedly!
>
>
>
>  What we learned was that a employee's record of stated hours worked was 
> accurate.  So paying peice rate does NOT NEGATE the need of the management to 
> record  and manage the hours worked by an employee.  We learned, that an 
> Employer is NOT responsible for their productivity the employer is.  So if 
> they go to the movies all day without you knowing it, and work late to get 
> the job done, you still owe them the overtime, regardless of what flat peice 
> rate you negotiated.
>
>
>
>  These are some of the reasons that we chose to put employees on Salary 
> instead of Piece rate.  We live in a sue happy county. We just plan on 
> everyone taking way to long for an install, and put very low expectations on 
> what they are expected to accomplish, and we save on management and 
> accounting salaries.  If they get done early, we have them do other things.  
> I won't talk about what happens if they don't get their work done, thats 
> handled on a case by case basis.  So we chose salary for ease.  IF they 
> consistently do well, they get a higher salary and stock options.  It creates 
> a team effort, not a what do I get mentality.
>
>
>
>  I don't know if that is the right decission or not, it really takes our guys 
> a long time to get things done. I often consider whether I should migrate 
> back to peice rate.
>
>
>
>
>
>  Tom DeReggi
>  RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>  IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
>
>
>
>    ----- Original Message -----
>
>    From: Pete Davis
>
>    To: WISPA General List
>
>    Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 9:10 AM
>
>    Subject: Re: [WISPA] Outsourced installations
>
>
>
>    According to the DOL (department of Labor) an employee can be paid by the 
> hour or for piece work (by the job)
>
>    from http://www.dol.gov/compliance/guide/minwage.htm
>
>    The Act requires employers of covered employees who are not otherwise 
> exempt to pay these employees a minimum wage of not less than $5.15 an hour 
> as of September 1, 1997. Youths under 20 years of age may be paid a minimum 
> wage of not less than $4.25 an hour during the first 90 consecutive calendar 
> days of employment with an employer. Employers may not displace any employee 
> to hire someone at the youth minimum wage.
>
>    Employers may pay employees on a piece‑rate basis, as long as they receive 
> at least the equivalent of the required minimum hourly wage rate. Employers 
> of tipped employees (i.e., those who customarily and regularly receive more 
> than $30 a month in tips) may consider such tips as part of their wages, but 
> employers must pay a direct wage of at least $2.13 per hour if they claim a 
> tip credit. They must also meet certain other conditions.
>
>    I suppose that if these guys manage to spend over 20 (10 hrs each) hrs on 
> every install for the pay period, then I would have to adjust their pay to 
> bring them up to minimum wage. That hasn't been a problem. They average about 
> 3 hrs/install including drive time. This is about twice as fast as installs 
> got done back when they were paid hourly. This is a win/win/win solution as I 
> see it. The employees like the method for making extra money. The customers 
> like the techs getting in and out in a reasonable time. I like getting 2 or 3 
> installs/day vs 1/day like we got back when techs got paid per hour.
>
>    We treat their install pay just like regular income. We withhold the 
> withholdings, deal with the social security, etc.
>
>    Lincoln Welder mfg company in Ohio pays EVERY employee piece-wage only. 
> You might get $4/ea to wind motors, $2/ea to install a switch, $7/ea to screw 
> wheels on, $1.50 to inspect parts, etc.
>    They have withholdings, pay social security, etc. They even clock in/out, 
> to insure to OSHA that no employee is working more than 120 hrs/week but this 
> method has been in place for years and works very well. The employees love it 
> and the unions hate it. It insures that the new guy in training  gets up to 
> speed in a reasonable time or washes out. The guy who has been there for 10 
> years can handle 10 $4 units/hr can make decent money.
>
>
>    Pete Davis
>    NoDial.net
>
>
>    Scott Reed wrote:
>
>    You might want to check with your accountant.  I doubt the IRS is going to 
> let you "contract" with people you also employ.  You may be liable for FICA, 
> etc. for all the installs they have done.
>
>    Scott Reed
>    Owner
>    NewWays
>    Wireless Networking
>    Network Design, Installation and Administration
>    www.nwwnet.net
>
>
>    ---------- Original Message -----------
>    From: Pete Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>    To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], WISPA General List <wireless@wispa.org>
>    Sent: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 07:40:09 -0500
>    Subject: Re: [WISPA] Outsourced installations
>
>    > We outsource most of our installs to our employees. The two techs 
> usually go out together, and split the $100. Its not unheard of for my techs 
> to make more money on a busy week than I take in my salary, and I am an owner.
>    >
>    > They make $x/hr to do service calls, uninstalls, AP maintenance, etc and 
> if they can keep those caught up, we schedule an install (usually 1 or 2 /day 
> for 2 techs). They are OFF the clock for installs, and get $100/install. We 
> provide the van, the tools, the gas, the CPE, and all consumables (staples, 
> caulk, cat5, ends, jacks, faceplates, etc). That keeps them from usually 
> turning in overtime. It gives them an incentive for completing installs in a 
> timely manner (2 hr install = $25/hr/tech). Any service calls resulting from 
> a faulty/sloppy install in the first 30 days result in the installer techs 
> going on site to fix it on THEIR time, so they have an incentive to get it 
> done right the first time around.
>    >
>    > We have a few other local IT/phone/security system consultants who will 
> occasionally bring us a customer and offer to install them, since they are an 
> existing consulting customer for them anyway and usually selling them a 
> custom network/phone system/security system/audio system anyway. We will 
> usually give them $125 or $150 and provide the CPE and minimal technical 
> support. They will bring us the contract/customer worksheet for our files, 
> and we don't even have to go on site. Since we usually charge $149 for the 
> setup, we often let the consultant charge whatever he wants, and keep it, and 
> put in as many custom cable runs and terminations as they can sell. We just 
> start picking up the monthly billing.
>    >
>    > Those are good relationships to have.
>    >
>    > Pete Davis
>    > NoDial.net
>    >
>    > chris cooper wrote:
>
>
>    >
>    > Im sure this has been covered before…..
>    >
>    > Have any of you outsourced installations?  If so, has it been a positive 
> experience, how much do you pay a contractor?
>    >
>    > Thanks
>    > Chris
>
>
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>    ------- End of Original Message -------
>
>
>
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