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Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 6:06 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

Someone posted a 3rd party GPS sync module (around $300 I think?). Can 
someone share that info with me again, please? :)

Travis
Microserv

Mike Bushard, Jr wrote:

>Run Advantage AP's and Legacy SM's.
>
>With the Advantage AP's and legacy SM's you get the Latency, and High
>Priority Channel all the time, and can burst to full 2X Rate. If you need
>the full 2x Rate Sustained, buy an Advantage SM.
>
>
>To answer your question, yes the Advantage AP will deliver the full 14Mb
>Aggregate.
>
>Mike Bushard, Jr
>Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>Behalf Of Travis Johnson
>Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:51 AM
>To: WISPA General List
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
>
>Another quick question...
>
>If you are running a Canopy Advantage AP and you use regular Canopy 
>SM's, can the AP still deliver the 14Mbps of bandwidth, or will it be 
>limited to 7Mbps (like the SM's)?
>
>Trying to decide if I want to use Advantage SM's or just regular?
>
>Travis
>Microserv
>
>Anthony Will wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Well I have had 2.4ghz radio's link up at -89db (not very well mind 
>>you but...) so I don't know what to tell you other then Moto has 
>>traditionally understated there spec sheets.  The GPS is what sets the 
>>timing for the AP's.  The AP's coordinate the timing slots for all 
>>SM's registered to them.  So how it works is that all AP's on channel 
>>1 across the world all transmit at the same time, and all SM's synced 
>>to a AP on channel 1 with GPS timing from the AP listen at the same 
>>time.  Distance is not relevant unless you are utilizing the feature 
>>set of the SM to retransmit a GPS sync pulse that it receives from and 
>>AP to a BH or AP.  The lag that is introduced by having to transmit 
>>that pulse info across the wireless link to the SM retransmitting is 
>>the only time that distance can come into play.  The application this 
>>is used for is for a cheap repeater system so that you dont have to 
>>have a GPS synchronizing device at every tower.
>>                        />SM
>>GPS -->AP#1 /
>>                       \
>>                         \>SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) -->AP#2 
>>-->SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) -->AP#3 (this AP will be out of 
>>sync with AP#1)
>>
>>Basically the timing is measured in nano seconds so it takes to long 
>>for RF to transmit the data across the wireless links to continue to 
>>propagate the timing signal.  But if you put a GPS sync generating 
>>device at AP#3 it would be in perfect time with AP#1 and close enough 
>>timing with AP#2 that they all would get along.
>>
>>One thing to keep in mind is if you are the only Canopy shop in the 
>>area you can have your AP's generate the sync pulse and avoid the cost 
>>of the GPS synchronizing items.  Also again as for the distance 
>>statement.  6 AP's in a cluster sharing 3 channels have to be synced.  
>>believe me the messy antenna on the Canopy units dont have a good 
>>enough F/B ratio to not hear another AP 6" away from it.  The two AP's 
>>that are back to back share the same channel so that when they 
>>transmit the SM's that are listening are as far away from each other 
>>as possible and thus reduce any chance of talking over each other.  
>>The largest benefit that GPS sync allows is to add additional capacity 
>>to area's by allowing for more towers to be in a smaller area without 
>>self interference.  If long range rural deployments are the plan then 
>>GPS sync will only benefit you if you have competitors utilizing the 
>>same equipment and configuration in the area.  So a Moto advantage 
>>cluster has about 84mb total (Classic Canopy would be 42mb) FTP 
>>bandwidth available to it.  If more is needed you can place the towers 
>>with in a few miles and divide a cell into two micro cells each with a 
>>possible 84mb of total bandwidth for a total of 168mb serviced to a 
>>given area. One last note, GPS timing will not allow for two separate 
>>clusters of the same type ( two 2.4ghz clusters) to be on the same 
>>tower.  I can't write out whats in my head on this.... getting a 
>>little late in the night but if you wanted to I could talk to you over 
>>the phone and explain it.  Send me an email to anthonyw (at) 
>>broadband-mn.com and Ill give you my cell phone number or give you a 
>>call.
>>
>>Anthony Will
>>Broadband Corp.
>>
>>Travis Johnson wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Hi,
>>>
>>>First, the spec sheet on Motorola's website says -86 RSSI.
>>>
>>>What happens when you have more than 3 towers outside of the 8 mile 
>>>range of GPS sync? The 2.4ghz signal will definately travel that far, 
>>>causing self-interference, correct?
>>>
>>>Travis
>>>Microserv
>>>
>>>Anthony Will wrote:
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>Answers in-line
>>>>
>>>>Travis Johnson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>>I'd like to go back to the specs on different radios just so I can 
>>>>>compare for myself...
>>>>>
>>>>>Trango 2.4ghz:
>>>>>5Mbps auto ratio
>>>>>8 non-overlapping channels
>>>>>10mhz spectrum per channel
>>>>>-90 Receive level
>>>>>15 mile range (without a grid)
>>>>>External connector and dual-pol integrated antenna
>>>>>$879 AP (WISP price)
>>>>>$479 SU (WISP price)
>>>>>
>>>>>Canopy 2.4ghz (regular):
>>>>>7Mbps fixed ratio
>>>>>3 non-overlapping channels
>>>>>20mhz spectrum per channel
>>>>>-86 Receive level
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>2.4 canopy has a -89 receive level
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>5 mile range (without a dish)
>>>>>$902 AP (reseller price online)
>>>>>$490 SU (reseller price online)
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>I am guessing your quoting single prices here.  Now that maybe 
>>>>viable for this discussion but realistically if a WISP is not 
>>>>financially able to purchase in 25 packs they likely are very 
>>>>underfunded.  So that the information is available a 25 pack of the 
>>>>"Classic" 2.4 ghz Canopy units is $6709 so if you break that down to 
>>>>single price that is about $269ea + $50 for reflector for a total of 
>>>>$319ea.  http://www.doubleradius.com   It is possible to get them 
>>>>cheaper then this but you will have to deal with co-op's or ebay.com
>>>>Also I would never install a unit with a 60* pattern (Trango or 
>>>>Canopy).  Just include the$50 for a reflector or stinger from 
>>>>http://www.wirelessbehive.com
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>Based on the information from Mike, I could not use Canopy. In 
>>>>>several areas, I have 4-5 towers located within 5 miles of each 
>>>>>other.... how do I do that with Canopy? With Trango, I use a 
>>>>>different channel for the sector pointing toward another tower 
>>>>>(frequency planning and coordination is very important) and 
>>>>>everything works great. Is there a solution for this with Canopy?
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>This is where GPS sync comes in.  You can point two different tower 
>>>>locations on the same frequency at each other and they will not 
>>>>interfere with each other.  This is how it is possible to do a 6 AP 
>>>>cluster on one tower with only 3 non overlapping channels.
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>Also, by using only a 10mhz spectrum per channel, Trango's channel 
>>>>>1 and channel 8 are actually outside the reach of Canopy and 802.11 
>>>>>(for the most part) and thus can almost always be used in a noisy 
>>>>>environment.
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>Remember with Canopy you generally don't have to avoid 
>>>>interference.  Find the cleanest channel and 90% of the time you 
>>>>will be the few db louder then the noise that you need to make a 
>>>>viable link.
>>>>
>>>>Anthony Will
>>>>Broadband Corp
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>Travis
>>>>>Microserv
>>>>>
>>>>>Mike Bushard, Jr wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>Well, so far as we can tell the only thing that can kill canopy, 
>>>>>>IS CANOPY.
>>>>>>We have put it up against WaveRider, Alvarion, and 802.11b. They 
>>>>>>all fell of
>>>>>>the face of the earth.
>>>>>>We have 16 tower sites deployed, all 900Mhz and 2.4, over 1000 CPE 
>>>>>>and more
>>>>>>on the way. (I realize there are many people bigger than us.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>We use a mix of MTI Omni's, MTI or Tiltek 120deg Sectors (MTI for 
>>>>>>Horizontal
>>>>>>and Tiltek for Vertical) and integrated 60deg sectors (I really 
>>>>>>wish someone
>>>>>>would come out with a descent H-pol as I don't like the integrated 
>>>>>>antenna)
>>>>>>with 900. Cyclone Omni's or 120deg sectors on 2.4.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Here is what I have found with GPS Sourced Sync vs. Generate Sync:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If you want channel reuse you need GPS sourced sync.
>>>>>>If you have a tower more than 8 miles away, you need to use different
>>>>>>channels no matter what, even with GPS sourced sync you still have 
>>>>>>speed of
>>>>>>light issues from tower to tower.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Can you Generate sync and deploy multiple AP's in a given area, 
>>>>>>yes. You
>>>>>>just need to make sure you have Frequency separation. Does this 
>>>>>>mean I
>>>>>>recommend it, NO.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Also even with every site GPS Synced, you still can only put so 
>>>>>>many AP's in
>>>>>>a given area be for you need to go to a different polarity. At 
>>>>>>least we know
>>>>>>there will never be another 900Mhz based ISP in one of our towns.....
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Also on a side note, I have never found a problem with 2.4, it is 
>>>>>>900 that
>>>>>>will give you problems, it just carries so far. If the noise floor 
>>>>>>was
>>>>>>lower, and Canopy could run at -90 we would have coverage for a 
>>>>>>long ways.
>>>>>>It seems like we can always pick up a AP at -80.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>YMMV.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Mike Bushard, Jr
>>>>>>Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>>>>>>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>>>>>>Behalf Of Matt Liotta
>>>>>>Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 5:07 PM
>>>>>>To: WISPA General List
>>>>>>Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Patrick Leary wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I'm speaking about multipoint matt, not ptp. The dedicated ptp 
>>>>>>>you are
>>>>>>>doing is by far the exception. Canopy is designed, built, and 
>>>>>>>sold to be
>>>>>>>primarily a pmp system. I've never met or heard of a Canopy pmp 
>>>>>>>network
>>>>>>>of any scale that did not require GPS.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      
>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'd be interested in further explanation on this topic. We have 
>>>>>>some Canopy pmp and haven't found the lack of GPS a problem. 
>>>>>>Granted we don't have a large amount of pmp, but I would certainly 
>>>>>>like to understand any future pain before we experience it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-Matt
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
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