In order for us
to keep ahead of the LECs and cable companies we need better products not
cheaper ones.

Well said, but can't we have our cake and eat it to?

How about "Better radios, Cheaper" :-)

High priced vendors don;t have high prices because their costs are higher.
They have higher prices because they feel the market will pay higher prices based on the benefit of the product. When it becomes beautiful for buyers is when their is enough competition and varietty of high quality gear, that it starts getting sold based on the cost to produce instead.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Belton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:55 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Re: Anyone using Exalt radios????


Hello Tom,

Well, that's the point we're trying to make here as to why not all radios
are equal.  Achieving advertised payloads 24x7 and not "up to" or "best
effort" regardless of the environment (for the most part) is where the line
is drawn.

Good example is a TeraBridge 5x45 PtP radio set that costs between $8k -
$15k depending on antennas, volume pricing etc.  This is a radio that
produces 45Mbps FDX period.  No auto-rating, no ARQ, no ifs, no ands or
buts.  That's 90Mbps aggregate using only two 16Mhz wide channels.  This
radio was originally designed and built probably long before Trango even
existed and has changed brand names no less than four times during its life.
As the saying goes; They just don't make 'em like that anymore!  lol

Of course that doesn't mean the radio is immune to interference, but as long
as you have enough gain over and above the noise floor they produce 45Mbps
FDX.  We have several pairs running in arguably one of the noisiest
environments in the nation.  In two separate cases we tried the Atlas at
either side of a TeraBridge and the Atlas just couldn't cut the mustard.
The Atlas is truly a toy in comparison to the TeraBridge.

Back to the point of this thread...the Exalt radios look promising.  I hope
we see more products like the TeraBridge and Exalt radios.  In order for us
to keep ahead of the LECs and cable companies we need better products not
cheaper ones.

Best,


Brad



-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 5:57 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Re: Anyone using Exalt radios????

Brad,

I recognize your points and don't deny them. But I get what I get where I
get it.
What I've been finding is that similar expereince is received with other
products.(Meaning they don't always get their speed either).
Most of my Atlas Links (above 10 miles) are not running at top modulation,
they usually operating optimally (no packet loss and low latency) at the
36mbps modulation level, which pushes real data of significantly less, I
forget the exact speeds with IPerf, but it was real close to 30 mbps. I
don't have a single Atlas running slower than that in service.

But on shorter links, we've gotten full modulation and full speed (45mbps)
out of the Atlas.  I believe I did post some speed results on the list over
the summer.
But you are right you can't get it in a very noisy environment, if you have
to get the TX and RX power to high. But its not really a distance limit, its

a delicate balancing act to get everything just right. (RX signal not to
high, TX power not to high, RSSI >20db above noise floor ). Its all
controlled by using the right antenna.

The Atlas also makes a GREAT 5.3-54 backhaul, for links under 5-7 miles.
When it operates at the low power, it runs much cleaner.

PS. recognize that my first post, I did not catch that the Exalts were FDX.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Belton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 10:47 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Re: Anyone using Exalt radios????


Hello Tom,

Yes auto-rate was off and ARQ was on.  We tried every combination possible
at the direction of Trango.

While I agree my experiences with Atlas may be on the worse side of the
scale I know many operators that have had the same poor experiences with
Atlas as we have.  I would venture to guess you are one of very few that has
seen 45Mbps out of an Atlas.  Just to clarify; we are talking about payload,
right?

Yes, antenna upgrades are common place with us.  Gabriel, RadioWaves and MTi
are our antennas of choice.  You should know that more than anyone as I was
one if not the biggest proponent of better antennas as it relates to Trango!

45Mbps HDX out of an Atlas, eh?  Sure would like to see some proof of
that...screenshot perhaps?  Certainly you're not going to claim an Atlas can
produce 45Mbps FDX as well are you?  After all, FDX is what this topic is
all about.

Best,


Brad


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 12:10 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Re: Anyone using Exalt radios????

Brad,

I'm aware of your Atlas experience. We've gotten Full 45mbps out of an Atlas

numerous times.
However, I admit, often that does require antenna size upgrade, and that
needs to be factored into the end cost for comparison.

Add a little noise to the equation and that puppy will auto-rate
itself down to the 10Mbps neighborhood in a heartbeat.

Thats why you turn off auto-rate, and turn on ARQ.

I guess I just never get that excited about buying a radio that costs more
than a decent car. (when a car technically is much more expensive to make)

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Belton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 9:53 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Re: Anyone using Exalt radios????


Not only that, but the Atlas isn't capable of 45Mbps in any form much less
FDX.  Most we've ever seen out of an Atlas is maybe 20Mbps HDX with very
clean air.  Add a little noise to the equation and that puppy will auto-rate
itself down to the 10Mbps neighborhood in a heartbeat.

Believe me these "up to" or "best effort" radios are tempting, but until you
deploy a few $15k - $30k PtP radio sets that actually produce what they
claim you won't understand what we're talking about.

When I say "you" I'm not directing that at anyone in particular just a
general comment.

Best,


Brad


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Moldashel
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 8:18 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Re: Anyone using Exalt radios????

Tom,

You're gonna bond 2 atlas links and get close to 100 Mb full
duplex?????   How is that??

The 200 Mb Exalt is 100 Mb TX /100 Mb RX

If you use your  equation you really need 4 Trango radios which is 5 x
$3000 = $15000 and that will give you 100 mb with 50/50 MIR.  Not to say
what you would use up in spectrum (20 Mhz. x 5 = 100 Mhz......OK...you
could play with polarity with good antennas and probably do better).

So the Exalt doesn't look that expensive after all........  :-)

And BTW:  I was told to expect MIR control for asymetrical bandwidth soon...

-B-


Tom DeReggi wrote:

The advertised throughput on a 200 Mhz radio is 100 Mb true
throughput in each direction port to port. The radio throughput is
based on a 64 Mhz channel.


OK so lets compare to Trango Atlas or Alvarion Backhaul (which has
similar metrics) with equivellent speed models. Taking that maybe only
1% of my market could pull off a 64Mhz channel.

Exalt Specs... 200rating @ 64Mhz = 100 mbps then
                    100rating @ 32Mhz = 50 mbps... @ $16,000 list.
                       This of course being best case based on noise
level and acheivalbe modulation.

Trango Specs.... 54rating @ 20Mhz = 45 mbps, for $3000.
So, if I bonded two Atlas Links, I'd get equivelent performance to the
high performance version at 30% less spectrum use, and 1/5 th the cost.
Now of Course Trango, is Ethernet only, and does not have the wayside
T1 support or Fiber/GPS features. And there is value to that for
someone offering Voice services also.

All I'm saying is that the street price sure better be a lot lower
than the list price listed, as you suggeset it is. The second you are
in the > $15,000 range, you might as well be doing licensed for the
extra $1000 bucks or two to make it survivable.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


----- Original Message ----- From: "Lakeland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 7:44 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Re: Anyone using Exalt radios????


Personally I couldn't be happier.  They work as expected and stated.
They have relatively straight forward GUI interfaces, you can move
the center of the channel to any 1 Mhz. division, it works on 5.3,
you can get a straight indoor only unit or an outdoor unit with
integral antenna or N connectors, they have 2 year warranty. OOB
replacement guarantee, the inegral antenna has electronic polarity
control, it can syc all units on a msite so you can use one channel,
the gps option is very reasonable and you don't need a central
controller or cabling between radios. User defined latency and
channel bandwidth as well as free upgrade to 5.4 when it becomes
available.
The advertised throughput on a 200 Mhz radio is 100 Mb true
throughput in each direction port to port. The radio throughput is
based on a 64 Mhz channel.
Now lets address the Motorola Orthogon for a minute. It has no GPS
syncing. It has no integral fiber interface.  The fiber "kit" is an
option that allows for cable runs in excess of POE lengths but you
still need external power.  I can put a media converter and external
power on a Exalt radio also.
As far as the bandwidth is concerned the Orthogon still uses 60 MHz
to give full bandwidth.  It just uses 30 on vertical and 30 on
horizontal.
On a positive note for Exalt the C/I is much better on the Exalt
radio which ultimately guarantees better distance in noisy environments.
The pricin on the Connectronics site is MSRP.  You can get it quite a
bit lower...
-B-





John Scrivner writes:

Bob,
Tell us about your experiences with these. Work as advertised?
Approximate cost per pair?
Thanks,
Scriv Bob Moldashel wrote:

Just looking for experiences.... Personally I think they rock but
just looking to see if anyone else has any pros/cons....
www.exaltcom.com 100 Mb FD 2.4 Ghz. radio.   Hmmmm.....   I bet
Marlon would love to have one of these for a neighbor!  :-) -B-

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--
Bob Moldashel
Lakeland Communications, Inc.
Broadband Deployment Group
1350 Lincoln Avenue
Holbrook, New York 11741 USA
800-479-9195 Toll Free US & Canada
631-585-5558 Fax
516-551-1131 Cell

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