Hello Rich,

Exactly my point and exactly why users operating in the unlicensed spectrum
need as many tools available at their disposal as possible.  My criticism
and suggestions have been to illuminate just those features as extremely
valuable to guys like me that sell CIR not MIR.  

Frankly the DP & DB features should be extremely valuable to any unlicensed
operator regardless of the business plan.  How can it be that greater
flexibility as I have described isn't going to better a product?

Just like many believe ATPC should be mandatory on all future unlicensed
products I believe DP & DB should be mandatory!  Not going to happen, but
the products that do offer these features will be superior in their
abilities to avoid and/or work around interference.

Best,


Brad




-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rich Comroe
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 10:56 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

There's no unlicensed product which guarantees business class services in
interference.  To suggest product A does and product B doesn't is nonsense.
I think you've done a good job of describing why you think some products do
a better job of than others.  That's fair.  Sharing experiences where one
product did better than another is fair.  I love reading your posts and
others comparing the attributes which impact on this.  It's educational and
I get insights into equipment that I haven't personally had direct
experience.  But the constant bashing that some product will guarantee
business class services in interference and another won't is tiresome, and
just turns people off from the good content that people appreciate.

Rich
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Brad Belton 
  To: 'WISPA General List' 
  Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 7:26 PM
  Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


  Certainly you can do committed rate business class services with
unlicensed
  products.  WMUX, Terabridge, Trango just to name a few.  Are they
  interchangeable in application?  Nope, they require you use the right
  product for the job at hand.  What may work well on one project may not on
  the next.

  Interference typically isn't temporary...at least not around these parts!
  No, you need to engineer the link with enough forethought and available
  tools on hand to give yourself options in the event a link does begin to
  incur interference.

  In our experience the VL was erratic in its ability to consistently
produce
  the same end result day in and day out.  Alvarion, me and the third party
  client all knew before hand the site was very RF unfriendly.  I visited
the
  site personally to run surveys before any gear was deployed.  We spent the
  better part of a month with Alvarion trying to get the VL to produce a
  consistent level of throughput at any level without success.  Just as I
  began to believe we had it licked we would get another call from the
client.
  The really frustrating part of all this is the throughput would vary
  depending on just how busy the other gear in the area was.  The busiest
  times of day is when we realized the link really suffered.

  I felt obligated to share our VL results here because Marlon indicated he
  was looking for a business class product.  VL is not that...at least not
in
  our book.

  Best,


  Brad



  -----Original Message-----
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Rich Comroe
  Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 5:35 PM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

  >Products that are best effort [snip product name]
  >end up making guys like us look bad.

  I'm confused how can anyone do better than "best effort" in unlicensed
  spectrum, regardless of manufacturer?

  >There is nothing worse than installing one day at 6Mbps and the next day
  >getting a call saying they are getting something less than that.

  If you have no allowance for even temporary interference, what short of a
  licensed channel can accomplish that?

  Rich
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Brad Belton 
    To: 'WISPA General List' 
    Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 5:17 PM
    Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


    If we are in an environment where ANY particular solution will not
produce
    the results we are after then we look at other products.  We will not
tie
    our hands to one brand.  No reason to.

    Our business model is different than the next and so on and so on.  Yes,
  CIR
    is what we sell not MIR.  That may be a good thing for us or it may turn
  out
    to be a bad thing for us, but that is the level of service we strive to
    deliver.  

    Products that are best effort like VL end up making guys like us look
bad.
    There is nothing worse than installing one day at 6Mbps and the next day
    getting a call saying they are getting something less than that.

    Expectations and end results are everything to us.  We meet expectations
  or
    we'd rather not do it, part ways amiability and maintain our reputation.
    It's a small town!  

    Best,


    Brad



    -----Original Message-----
    From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
    Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
    Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 2:57 PM
    To: WISPA General List
    Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

    >The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90%
  of
    >the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise
floor,
    >but not for committed rate business class service.

    Agreed.  But what about when you are in an environment that TDD won't
work

    well? Sometimes the answer is to modify your offering to what the beset 
    thing is that can be delivered.
    CIR service may need to be changed to MIR. In what cases is CIR really 
    needed? And what areas of your business or network also prevent the CIR
  Full

    QOS guarantee from being realized?

    Tom DeReggi
    RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
    IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: "Brad Belton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
    To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org>
    Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:03 PM
    Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


    My thoughts exactly.

    If the VL had a mechanism to "tune out" noise and a few other tools
(dual
    pol - dual band) that would enable the user avoid noise then it is
  possible
    there simply would not be a better PtMP LE product available today.
  Without
    those critical elements the VL is just not able to perform consistently
in
    RF hostile environments.

    The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90%
of
    the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise
floor,
    but not for committed rate business class service.

    Best,


    Brad





    -----Original Message-----
    From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
    Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
    Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 11:46 AM
    To: WISPA General List
    Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

    Got it.  Thanks.

    I guess my "beef" comes from being a wifi based wisp.  I find it too
    difficult to reject interference with a csma based product.  Anything
with
  a

    "wait for clear air, then transmit" MAC is GREAT for collocation.  But
  sucks

    when there are products around that don't follow that mechanism.  That's
  (my

    personal belief) why Canopy went with it's GPS sync.  It doesn't care
  who's
    already out there, when it's time to transmit it does.  Trango does that
  to,

    just without sync'ing the AP's.

    My REAL world experience so far is that csmak (or csma/ca, or whatever
    collision avoidance scheme you want to use) is GREAT where there aren't
  many

    other systems within ear shot of the radios.  However, when there are
  other
    devices in the area, especially those that don't have a collision
  avoidance
    mechanism, the csma radio will pay a heavy price in performance.

    Having used both csma and polling products, I'm not putting in any wifi
  type

    products at 5 gig.  All of our next gen products will be polling as long
  as
    we can keep things that way.

    These days, I'm learning to sacrifice raw performance for reliability
and
    uptime.  There's a balance, sure, but getting that last 10 to 20% out of
a
    product is less important to me than having a product that can survive
  some
    of the games that my less scrupulous competitors play.

    However, with EITHER technology choice, it's critical to design a
network
    that can, and does, physically (antenna choice and ap locations)
isolates
    your system as well as you possibly can.  That seems to be the type of
  trick

    that just can't be taught.  Your network designer either gets it or he
    doesn't.  Heck, I've even done consulting gigs where I looked a guy
right
  in

    the eye and gave them several choices for site locations.  Only to have
  them

    pick something completely different, and sometimes unworkable.

    80 to 90%  of people's problems with wireless are self inflicted.
Either
    outright or in a lack of forethought manner.

    Here's an idea for you Patrick.  Make this product work both ways.  Give
  it
    the option to be either csma or some fancy new version of token ring.
  Then
    we could optimize performance for any environment that we find ourselves
  in.

    Oh yeah, I remember the big hubbub about GPS in the BreezeACCESS II
line.
    Why was it important for collocation then but not now?

    Hope you guys all had a great Christmas!
    Marlon
    (509) 982-2181                                   Equipment sales
    (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)                    Consulting services
    42846865 (icq)                                    And I run my own wisp!
    [EMAIL PROTECTED]
    www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
    www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: "Patrick Leary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
    To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
    Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:26 AM
    Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


    I'd never call you a neophyte, Marlon. A jolly elf maybe, neophyte
    never...

    CSMA/CA. But the MAC has been substantially altered, especially with 4.0
    and the WLP (wireless link prioritization) feature where all stations
    can be made to wait while those stations with spooled up voice can
    release their packets regardless of where they are in the cell. Also, in
    VL an operator can adjust numerous values of the CSMA/CA, such as
    contention window duration, contention levels, etc. It is more
    sophisticated than your basic polling and more efficient.

    Patrick Leary
    AVP WISP Markets
    Alvarion, Inc.
    o: 650.314.2628
    c: 760.580.0080
    Vonage: 650.641.1243
    [EMAIL PROTECTED]

    -----Original Message-----
    From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
    Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
    Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:13 AM
    To: WISPA General List
    Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

    Got that part.  I still didn't see in there anywhere, in plain English
    that
    a neophyte like me can understand, is this a polling or csmak product?
    Marlon
    (509) 982-2181                                   Equipment sales
    (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)                    Consulting services
    42846865 (icq)                                    And I run my own wisp!
    [EMAIL PROTECTED]
    www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
    www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: "Patrick Leary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
    To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
    Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:54 PM
    Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


    Marlon, I'll answer this with a re-post of a September post that
    explains, in part, why VL is not just regular CSMA:

    <<trim>>

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