Respectfully Carl and while I generally agree on use of standards (in a
mature market), when the market is developing and one still wants in,
then it is up to the operator to pick a horse that is stable. The
stability of your initial choice was there for any to see and study as a
public company. On your second choice, you decided to go with a new
entrant to the market whose primary business was something else. So you
made your own risk calculations.

Had you opted for more stability (such as a Motorola or Alvarion), you'd
not have been confronted with that problem. I agree that this is an
important consideration and I would assert that too few WISPs place any
value on that. I can tell you that the health and/or the commitment of a
supplier is a TOP consideration of large operators. ...Not going that
route would be unthinkable.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243

-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Carl A jeptha
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 2:17 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Jon, okay, I'm no engineer. But what about the

So am I correct in assuming that being held ransom by a manufacturer is 
the right business model.
If I buy Alvarion now and they go belly-up, I can just switch to Trango 
and when they go Belly-up I can go to Motorola and so on and so on.

Or am I missing the POINT TOTALLY. I should not use an internationally 
recognized standard, I should use Proprietary equipment.
I spent two years of my life with WAVERIDER, where the [EMAIL PROTECTED]&^ing 
are they now????????
I spent two years of my life with CIRRONET, where are they now????????
Tell me again it is a sound business model to be held Hostage by one 
If the international standard is wrong, why can't we get the 
manufacturers to come up with a common standard???????
Or is it that when held hostage they don't have to supply proper 
customer service????
Or is it their business plan to capture the market and after gaining the

monopoly, then what?????


It does not take an engineer to figure out that one, and once I have 
been bitten by a bad product it will me a long time to go back to it.

You have a good day now,en mag jou more's ook so wees.

Carl A Jeptha
skype cajeptha

Tom DeReggi wrote:
> Marty,
> And I probably should be selling, not debating :-(
> But, I can't agree more with your post.
> Except....
>> When was the
>> last time a Trango EMPLOYEE asked for your feedback?
> Trango is one of the best manufacturers out there, from the 
> perspective of asking their customers, what they want and need, and 
> responding with change.
> They've even reimbursed WISPs for travel expenses to come offer their 
> advice on how they can improve their product.
> Trango shines in that area, and their success at keeping in touch with

> their buyers, is a large part of their success to date, and I have 
> nothing but respect for Trango's efforts in that area.
> Credit should be given where credit is due.
> Trango's current limitation, is they don't have a greater than 10mbps 
> PtMP product.  But it wasn't really ever needed until recently, nor 
> ever really asked for, because it wasn't needed.  Alvarion was the one

> that took 5 years to reduce their price, something we ALL always asked

> for from day one. Don't get me wrong, I wish Trango would replace the 
> dish with a good solid panel, I haven't won that battle yet.
> Today, for me, Alvarion has the upper hand. They have the right 
> product, at the right price, at the right time, which was a very bold 
> and smart move strategically to make. Mutually for the WISP's benefit 
> and Alvarions.  Gain the market share, while they have the unique 
> product to accomplish it.  But, its not clear that Alvarion will have 
> that same advantage 6 months from now, when Trango launches their next

> generation product, which I can tell you is an exciting product.  And 
> Trango is listening, as that product will have high quality Dual 
> Polarity Panel antennas. This is a leap frog industry. Trango's bigger

> mistake is that Trango gave up backwards compatibility, in their 
> vision for new products.  That means they can't leverage their 
> customer's existing huge investment in Trango installed base to their 
> advantage, to encourage WISPs to wait for their new products from 
> Trango. So Trango will have to compete head to head on feature set 
> alone, like a start up product. Its hard to win just on being #1 with 
> features.   Just like winning subs, who gets their first with a viable

> option, wins them. Same applies to manufacturers selling products.
> I believe a WISP buys based on the following priorities....
> 1) Leverage existing investment
> 2) Time to market
> 3) Features
> (Price of course being a major factor, but relative to 1,2,3).
> I'm starting the move to Alvarion, for many parts of my network 
> because, Alvarion is offering me an improved "Time to Market" 
> advantage, meaning a SOLUTION that best meets my need today.  This is 
> to late in the game, to be waiting for product.  The only delay, I can

> justify accepting is, waiting for my subscriber prospect to sign our 
> broadband agreement.
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Leary" 
> To: "WISPA General List" <>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 3:31 PM
> Subject: RE: [WISPA] Jon, okay, I'm no engineer. But what about the 
> Thanks Marty. You'd think after eight years of this I'd long ago
> to shut up and let guys like you do all the talking.
> Patrick
> -----Original Message-----
> Behalf Of Marty Dougherty
> Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:10 PM
> To: 'WISPA General List'
> Subject: RE: [WISPA] Jon, okay, I'm no engineer. But what about the
> Gents:
> Funny watching all of this go back and forth- I think since it started
> we have installed another 10-12 VL's for our customers. I really don't
> know how you guys find the time to keep up with this.
> You all can argue the merits of the technical abilities of the
> products but what really make the count for us is REVENUE- Revenue
> the bills and keeps the whole ship afloat. Now when I say revenue I
> don't mean enough for me to take a check and go to the grocery. I mean
> enough revenue to hire the proper staff, (so I don't have to work 80
> hours per week), revenue to rent a real office, revenue to pay full
> benefits like health care and 401K, revenue to pay for training,
> to purchase network management so we can keep an eye on the network,
> revenue so we can take a few days off and attend industry trade shows
> and seminars, etc etc.
> So if you set aside your technical dream solution hat (I am an
> by training too) and instead put on your revenue hat you will see
> with a different light.
> A solution is not revenue focused if it does not scale your customer
> base beyond the grocery store check. Scale means the products allow
> to install LOTS of customer without each one being a science project.
> Scale means you have a VERY LOW failure rate. Scale means the solution
> fits a majority of your desired customers. Scale means you have all of
> the tools needed to prevent your customers from abusing you or your
> other customers. Scale means you can hand the product to a contractor
> and it will get installed without a major effort. Scaling means..etc
> etc...
> A solution that scales also comes with REAL support. A real account
> manager and a real SE- not to mention marketing. Can you really expect
> your network to keep up with/grow to your needs if your sole source of
> product information and future direction is a WEB site? When was the
> last time a Trango EMPLOYEE asked for your feedback?
> We have installed well over 1000 VL's and close to 1900 total
> almost all using Alvarion products. We started with Wifi, Trango, MOTO
> etc but in the end the Alavarion product line was the most focused on
> revenue and the only solution that allowed us to scale. Today our
> customers are VERY happy and our network performs excellently. We have
> very LOW turnover (almost none) and our monthly AR is also very low. I
> learned long time ago that happy customers pay their bills and unhappy
> ones, well you know what happens.
> So in summary the VL's and (Alvarion products) may not have every
> version of every possible bell and whistle but if you decide to really
> make a big play (scale) you can't go wrong with Alvarion and their
> BTW-I have the revenue to prove it!
> Marty
> ____
> Marty Dougherty
> Roadstar Internet Inc
> -----Original Message-----
> Behalf Of Patrick Leary
> Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 6:31 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: [WISPA] Jon, okay, I'm no engineer. But what about the
> Sigh. Jon, I'm really not sure why you beat that drum when examples
> exist all around that show it is not true. In fact, no tier 1 or 2
> operator that deploys in the 5GHz unlicensed bands (i.e. operators
> tend to do lengthy trials, comparisons) that I know of has fallen for
> that argument either, at least not for long. Many WISPs also know
> better. It is only a few Canopy-based WISPs who continue to believe
> GPS is required in the UL bands. Could it be because they have to use
> to get Canopy to scale so they can't imagine how other systems could
> scale well without it?
> As for the non-engineer part, it seems Jon that you'd benefit from
> wider non-technical thinking. What about the business? Here are some
> BUSINESS-minded things to think about:
> - What about an operator that does not want to be stranded by being
> limited in their service offering, such as one that would like to do
> scaled VoIP? BreezeACCESS VL can scale VoIP very well where other
> systems struggle with only minimal users. Canopy Advantage's VoIP
> scaling abilities are there for all to see in Motorola's own white
> -- 26-28 simultaneous calls per AP only, and that's with a 50%
> uplink/downlink configuration. VL can do 10x that and that all equates
> to revenue potential.
> - What about the LOS-limited coverage of Canopy that might require 2
> more times the towers to get the same coverage as one cell of VL? Even
> cell for cell, CAPEX is now similar between brands, but VL produces
> about 2x the geographic coverage. Canopy requires more cells (i.e.
> higher OPEX due to more cell leases and more sectors to maintain) and
> needs more premium sites.
> - And that's not counting the customer accessibility -- even within
> exact same geography, VL can "see" many more of the potential
> than can Canopy.
> - And what about cell capacity? Using the same channel sizes, Canopy
> needs 2x the sectors to get still 15% less than VL?
> - And what about subscriber capacity? Anyone in the cell that wants
> than 14mbps is totally out of the revenue picture and business model
> even with a Canopy ptp. BreezeACCESS VL pmp can connect 15mbps,
> 25mbps and even higher speed demanding customers.
> - And for sure now even the cost equation is now equal or better for
> than Canopy both per cell and per CPE since the advent of the
> AlvarionCOMNET program for WISPs.
> If you analyze completely today, you may find that Canopy's GPS
> is the only thing left that can even be spun as being an advantage
> BreezeACCESS VL since we have come out with v.4.0 and the
> program. And when you realize that Canopy needs 2x sectors PER cell
> get the same capacity) and about 2x cells PER geography (to achieve
> same coverage) -- it becomes pretty clear why Canopy must have GPS.
> Patrick Leary
> AVP WISP Markets
> Alvarion, Inc.
> o: 650.314.2628
> c: 760.580.0080
> Vonage: 650.641.1243
> -----Original Message-----
> Behalf Of Jon Langeler
> Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 1:06 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
> Marlon, if that's the type of product your looking for, I'll save you
> the hassle of looking (and you can come back to this post in 5-10
> to make your conclusions on my recommendation) because your best best
> to go with canopy or wait until a 5GHz 802.16e solution comes out(not
> likely soon). If Alvarion would get an actual ENGINEER to debate about
> their RF technology compared to others on-list, that would be the day
> :-)
> Jon Langeler
> Michwave Tech.
> Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:
>> Got it.  Thanks.
>> I guess my "beef" comes from being a wifi based wisp.  I find it too
>> difficult to reject interference with a csma based product.  Anything
>> with a "wait for clear air, then transmit" MAC is GREAT for
>> collocation.  But sucks when there are products around that don't
>> follow that mechanism.  That's (my personal belief) why Canopy went
>> with it's GPS sync.  It doesn't care who's already out there, when
>> it's time to transmit it does.  Trango does that to, just without
>> sync'ing the AP's.
>> My REAL world experience so far is that csmak (or csma/ca, or
>> collision avoidance scheme you want to use) is GREAT where there
>> aren't many other systems within ear shot of the radios.  However,
>> when there are other devices in the area, especially those that don't
>> have a collision avoidance mechanism, the csma radio will pay a heavy
>> price in performance.
>> Having used both csma and polling products, I'm not putting in any
>> wifi type products at 5 gig.  All of our next gen products will be
>> polling as long as we can keep things that way.
>> These days, I'm learning to sacrifice raw performance for reliability
>> and uptime.  There's a balance, sure, but getting that last 10 to 20%
>> out of a product is less important to me than having a product that
>> can survive some of the games that my less scrupulous competitors
> play.
>> However, with EITHER technology choice, it's critical to design a
>> network that can, and does, physically (antenna choice and ap
>> locations) isolates your system as well as you possibly can.  That
>> seems to be the type of trick that just can't be taught.  Your
>> designer either gets it or he doesn't.  Heck, I've even done
>> consulting gigs where I looked a guy right in the eye and gave them
>> several choices for site locations.  Only to have them pick something
>> completely different, and sometimes unworkable.
>> 80 to 90%  of people's problems with wireless are self inflicted.
>> Either outright or in a lack of forethought manner.
>> Here's an idea for you Patrick.  Make this product work both ways.
>> Give it the option to be either csma or some fancy new version of
>> token ring.  Then we could optimize performance for any environment
>> that we find ourselves in.
>> Oh yeah, I remember the big hubbub about GPS in the BreezeACCESS II
>> line. Why was it important for collocation then but not now?
>> Hope you guys all had a great Christmas!
>> Marlon
>> (509) 982-2181                                   Equipment sales
>> (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)                    Consulting services
>> 42846865 (icq)                                    And I run my own
> wisp!
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