Yea but in order to eat the apple from my tree, you have to come into my
house and use my knife to cut it up....Bad analogy. Using an open AP is
still illegal. I may leave my front door open but it does not make it ok
for you to take stuff. You can listen to cordless phone conversations
but it is still illegal.


-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Pete Davis
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 11:25 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] recommendation forClient POE integrated radio for

Yes, you paid for it, then broadcast it completely unencrypted into the 
airspace that is in my car, that is perfectly legally parked in the 
street. If your apple tree drops an apple in my yard, it is free for me 
to eat. You paid for the water, the fertilizer, and the minerals to 
create the fruit, but it became my fruit win it landed in my yard.


Scott Reed wrote:
> Ah, but it does cost me the monthly fee.  And if you use it, it is 
> because I paid the fee, not you. There, seems to me it is theft, you 
> are using what I paid for without paying.
> Pete Davis wrote:
>> I suppose that the only real difference is that you can drive up 
>> within a few hundred feet of any house with a unsecured wireless 
>> network, and get online without anyone knowing (or caring most of the

>> time). Its more like walking up and getting a drink from your water 
>> hose in your yard than JohnnyO's analogy of using your wife. A sip of

>> water from the hose or 5 minutes on your wireless router neither one 
>> significantly costs anyone.
>> While it is technically "stealing" it is hard to suggest that it 
>> costs the paying subscriber has sustained any monetary loss or any 
>> cost of real performance, internet speed, or water pressure. If his 
>> files on his PC were shared on his insecure WLAN, and you drove up 
>> and snooped/altered/deleted them, then it would seem that there is 
>> grounds for vandalism/business interruption, unauthorized information

>> access, etc, etc.
>> If I walk up to your water hose, steal it, cut it, or run several 
>> hoses together and fill my 30,000 gallon pool, or stick it in your 
>> window and flood your house, then there is a problem, and a real 
>> issue, and a crime has been committed, since it legitimately costs 
>> you real money to remedy.
>> If I drive near your home, get on the internet, check my email, make 
>> a VOIP call, look up a stock price, or whatever, then I don't suspect

>> anyone will complain, or know that I did it. It also won't cost you 
>> anything.
>> If I sit out there for hours downloading copyright violations (P2P) 
>> or cracking your file server, or send 10,000,000 spam messages 
>> getting your IP added to the RBL's, then there is a real issue.
>> An emergency communication plan that includes "war driving" to 
>> establish VOIP is akin to a fire department that plans to put out 
>> fires with a series of garden hoses and outside hose bibs instead of 
>> installing real fire hydrants.
>> As far as the legality of war driving, I am not sure that MOST war 
>> driving is "catch-able" "convict-able" or "quantify-able" (in the 
>> cost to the customer) or whatever.
>> Its also against the law to sample grapes at the grocery store. I 
>> don't do that, but I am sure that people have done that for years. I 
>> have never even heard of anyone getting in trouble for it. (war 
>> driving or grape sampling). I suppose that if you got greedy with 
>> either one, you would get your hand slapped.
>> Pete Davis
>> Rick Smith wrote:
>>> ah yes, but then you would've had a cop knock on the front door, and

>>> ASK your permission to use the phone.   At which point, you
>>> COULD say "NO!" and shut the door on them.  Or, you could let them
>>> in, and tell them "OK! here it is!"
>>> BUT...They wouldn't do the equivalent of walking up to your NID, 
>>> plugging a butt set in and just dialing away...
>>> If I, right now, drove up in front of your house, got out of my
>>> walked up to your Network panel that Verizon or the local phone co.
>>> put there as their demarcation point, and plugged my butt set in
>>> and got dial tone and dialed Hawaii to chat with someone at YOUR
>>> expense, I could be found / shot / arrested / sued / what have you.
>>> What's different with WiFi ?  Nothing but the excuses we allow
>>> to continue to make.
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> Behalf Of Pete Davis
>>> Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 3:11 PM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio
>>> 802.11b/g
>>> The legality and ethics of using an open access point is 
>>> questionable, but
>>> there is a liability issue as well. In most of the areas that I 
>>> cover with
>>> my network, there is a strong signal with SSID of NoDial.
>>> Connecting to this will get you a DHCP address even, without a WEP 
>>> or other
>>> encryption key.
>>> Until I know that you have connected and moved your mac address to a

>>> list
>>> that authorizes your connection, all of your outbound packets will 
>>> be sent
>>> to This brings up a liability issue. If the
>>> emergency communication van tech wastes 2 hrs trying to get hold of 
>>> me, get
>>> connected to the internet, or whatever, and $10M of houses burn
>>> because they couldn't get to the fire department via a hacked VOIP 
>>> solution,
>>> then am I gonna get sued?
>>> If they connect to my private home network that I intentionally left

>>> open,
>>> and my custom made uber-hacker passive/aggressive firewall unleashes
>>> blackops virus that turns their laptops into bricks. Then what?
>>> I guess, that by JohnnyO's example, if you come into my open door 
>>> and try to
>>> visit with my wife, and you step on a rake that gives you a brain 
>>> anurism, I
>>> guess that makes me guilty (or not guilty) of manslaughter. I lost 
>>> score in
>>> this ballgame.
>>> If the cops are in a pursuit in my neighborhood, and run their squad

>>> car off
>>> the road breaking the radio, and they want to use my home phone to 
>>> call the
>>> office, I would let them. Not because I HAVE to, but to be a good 
>>> citizen.
>>> If I HAD to, then the 4th amendment just went out the window.
>>> pd
>>> Jack Unger wrote:
>>>> Holy brainfade, JohnnyO.
>>>> Your comments about "highly illegal" just went STRAIGHT over my
>>>> What's illegal about Brian's emergency communications operation? 
>>>> Hams have been providing emergency communications services since 
>>>> (literally) the sinking of the Titanic.
>>>> jack
>>>> JohnnyO wrote:
>>>>> Brian - Ham Operator or not - do you realize that what you're 
>>>>> planning
>>>>> on doing is HIGHLY illegal and has several people over the past 2 
>>>>> yrs in
>>>>> Federal Prison as we speak ?
>>>>> Why don't ya'll get a VSAT system that works well for VOIP ? The 
>>>>> cost is
>>>>> only about $60/mo more and you have no restrictions on bandwidth
>>>>> stupid filtering like Wild Blue does....
>>>>> JohnnyO
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>>>>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Brian Webster
>>>>> Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 2:56 PM
>>>>> To: WISPA List
>>>>> Subject: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio
>>>>> 802.11b/g
>>>>> I'm looking for a good client radio to use in an emergency
>>>>> communications
>>>>> vehicle. My criteria are, POE, highest gain panel antenna
>>>>> scan/survey tool built in, web interface, 802.11b at minimum. I'm 
>>>>> part
>>>>> of a
>>>>> ham radio emergency response group and we have our own comms van. 
>>>>> I want
>>>>> to
>>>>> have a client radio that we can use on a push up mast to scan 
>>>>> around for
>>>>> an
>>>>> open access point and grab bandwidth in an emergency on a scene.
>>>>> respond
>>>>> with our county Hazmat team for support and the internet is handy.
>>>>> already have a Wild Blue setup and that will work when necessary 
>>>>> but I
>>>>> would
>>>>> like to be able to use something with lower latency so we can 
>>>>> implement
>>>>> VOIP
>>>>> at times. I have not studied the 802.11b outdoor client radios in 
>>>>> a long
>>>>> time and thought I would ask opinions here. Price is a 
>>>>> consideration but
>>>>> the
>>>>> feature set is more important. Id' like to stay away from
>>>>> just
>>>>> because of their attitude on the phone whenever I have dealt with 
>>>>> them.
>>>>> If
>>>>> any of you can point me to a link were I can purchase one that 
>>>>> would be
>>>>> great. Have a nice day.
>>>>> Thank You,
>>>>> Brian Webster

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