I believe I said we use reduced X2 cloaking for reduced RF spectrum
usage, which you do not use because you have older gear or software
that does not support it.  You even agreed that reduced bandwidth
works but that you chose not to use it.  G mode does not have to play
nice with B gear and that is why the newer drivers have selections for
b only, b/g mixed or g only, so you cannot kill a G system with a
single B client.  If you simply replace that B client with a modern
system you'll not have the troubles you do now.

In my role of supporting people, I spend the bulk of my time dealing
with people trying to make older B only systems work.  They have
reached the end of life simply due to the amount of B mode use out
there.  X2 cloaking extends the life of 2.4 GHz and in many cases is
simply a software upgrade to get that new capability.  It could also
require an Atheros card to replace a prism or Orinoco and in more than
a few cases it will require outright replacement of the entire system.

You can't make a half hearted attempt at doing this.  It is all or
nothing.  Try G mode with X2 cloaking and move over more and more big
users to it.  They will be happy and you will spend less time doing
tech support.  Even in a quiet environment X2 cloaking is still the
way to go.  Having double the number of non overlapping channels means
much more spectrum to play with.  X2 cloaking gives slightly higher
power output, better receive sensitivity and higher digital processing
conversion gain due to the reduced number OFDM RF carriers.  It is
superior.  Simple.

I do understand why people don't want to hear that.  They have been
operating on the basis that they were doing the right thing and they
were making money, so they had it right.  In reality they have been
duped by the manufacturers who could not figure out how to do it
right, or who made more money flogging last gen technology.  So don't
get mad at me, get mad at the guys who sold you your current B only
client gear.  They are the ones who mislead you.  I'm just the
messenger and the guy with a better system.  You want what I have but
you are angry that your current gear does not do it.

I am on one location that has 7 other Access Points all beaming to the
same town site.  Nothing works if we use standard 20 MHz channels.  X2
cloaking works on pretty much any channel I wish to use and I use 4 of
those, so the total is 11 radios in 2.4 GHz from that site and all
going to the same general location.  My stuff works and I think their
stuff works because we are just noise to them, and the whole concept
of spread spectrum is not being bothered by noise.

This is why I said B is dead and G is the new thing, simply because of
the cloaking ability.  If more people switched to cloaking then even
the standard stuff would be better.  This is sort of like the way 900
MHz is rebounding because nobody is using it anymore, plus the new
radios and drivers can have 4 channels of 5 MHz RF spectrum.  That 5
MHz can deliver a solid 6.5 mbps and up to 12 mbps with compression
kicking in.


On 2/4/07, wispa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Sun, 4 Feb 2007 11:59:18 -0800, Lonnie Nunweiler wrote
> I know this goes farther than the B versus G debate that was started,
> but the key thing in being able to do this is the cloaking with its
> reduced RF spectrum use.  A B mode AP cannot do cloaking, nor can
> your AP do it if the AP is not an Atheros with a driver that
> properly supports the ability.

It must be, because running your gear, I cannot get G mode to work acceptably

In my area, every channel has SOME noise on it.  Even with signal levels in
the low '60's, I could never achieve better than 350 to 400 KB / sec
throughput for a DEPLOYED AP and client, and B mode could hit 1400 KB/sec
using compressible data, about 650-700 wihtout compression.

Narrowing channels appears to kill the G characteristic of waiting for
completely clear air before it will transmit.   Without cloaking, a nearly
idle access point in G mode with a G client, will have varying 1 to 400 ms
pings as it waits for clear air to transmit in.   Switching to B mode gives
you rock solid 1 to 7 ms pings on an active AP with a number of clients.

> B is dead and is holding the Industry back.  If you use B mode then
> you NEED 400 mW radios because of the noise.

Nonsense.  My highest power radios are CM9's and I have have few to no noise
issues in B mode.

B has limited throughput and yet it has it's uses.  It is certainly
NOT "holding industry back".   I believe that investing in B only technology
is dumb, though.  I thought it was dumb when I started a little less than 3
years ago, which is why I tried not to.  I've found that 11a is actually a
bit more friendly, in that it's easier to target your ap's and clients, and
exclude noise sources outside the pattern.

If you use G mode and
> X2 cloaking then you need less than 100 mW and you'll have WAY
> better performance.  Just to be sure about this point --> I am
> speaking from EXPERIENCE.  This is not some plan I someday hope to
> try.  It is what we use and is what a lot of others use as well.

Sub 100 MW works awesome in B mode, too, so long as the writers of the
drivers dont' disable the awesome enhanced features available in Atheros
based radios.  ( HINT HINT )

> OFDM was invented as an improvement over previous modulation
> techniques.  Why do people have such a hard time accepting that it
> actually works better?  Is it because you have an investment in B
> only radios and realize you have to reinvest in G radios?  It is
> sort of like the phone companies hanging onto their copper lines.  Wireless
> started to cream them and now you are seeing that G is creaming B, so
> that the old established operators are in trouble.

That's a lotta hype.   I put YOUR  gear in place, as per YOUR instructions,
and YOUR predictions don't work out that way.

I've found that there's caveats to all this.  OFDM makes great RF links, but
it takes a little bit more signal to maintain low retransmissions or errors.
On the other hand,  OFDM is dramatically better when it comes to surviving
multipath issues and fresnel encroachment.

G mode is simply not workable in a busy environment, unless you can force the
radio to abandon listening to non ofdm noise, or narrow your channels enough
to get away from it.  By design, standard 11g can have it's performance
killed by even a single B client attempting to associate to the AP.

Not explaining this to people wanting to implement is irresponsible, in my

> Lonnie
> --
> Lonnie Nunweiler
> Valemount Networks Corporation
> http://www.star-os.com/
> --
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Mark Koskenmaki  <> Neofast, Inc
Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains

WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org


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Lonnie Nunweiler
Valemount Networks Corporation
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