Hey Gang, After reading this thread for a few hours, I told myself I would shut up and just go away, but I must say, after pacing around the house for awhile and reviewing all of the things that I know in my mind?, I must say something?(Not that anyone gives a rats behind?). Look, what Patrick has posted to this list(As much as I hate to say it, and not because it's Patrick, its because of the actual subject?) is TRUE!. If You are looking to find some truth to his statements?, just wander over to DSL Reports WISP forum( http://www.dslreports.com/forum/wisp ) and review some of the posts that have been made there over the years?. At least every other day or so, someone posts a question about how far they can hook up a client using a 1 watt amp with a 15.5dBi omni. When I first started in this business, if the salesperson at Ecomm, Winncomm etc. didn't know You?, and You asked for a 1 watt amp?, they wouldn't sell it?, or at least You had to answer a LOT of questions as to what You were going to use it for?. Today, all someone has to do is go to ebay, or call any of the popular vendors and in most cases?, it is on a UPS truck in 24hrs headed for Your address. I am NOT blaming any vendor for this mess any more than I am blaming the FCC or our industry as a police force, it just needs to be said that it IS heading in the wrong direction quickly(I think Patrick's mention of the slippery slope is accurate?). To add to the mess is a list of "consultants" that have popped up as of late?. In 2000, if You typed in "WISP" as a search word?, You got almost NO hits. Today, when You repeat this, the result is CRAZY! ( Results 1 - 10 of about 3,430,000 for WISP-From Google!) . The current trend in the WISP business is headed right towards the same debacle as the CB radio craze of the 70's? (I guess I am showing my age, LOL!). That problem ended because the spectrum was so wasted that You couldn't even talk to someone down the street, and cell phone and other communications technologies replaced the medium. While I do not know anyone in a high position in the FCC at the time, I am almost positive that more than one FCC meeting had people with their arms in the air going, "OMG!, What are we going to do??". IMHO.....ahh, You know what?, scratch my opinion, lets just say that in my experience, I know where this entire deal is headed unless something major happens?, it will be a wasteland that is sooo.... bad, You won't even have to put Your coffee in the microwave to heat it up, just open the protective steel front doors on Your house and set it outside for a few seconds and it is ready!( OK, a little overboard, but I think You all get my point?). I have been in this business since 2000. When I started lighting up PoP's in 2001, a site survey yielded nothing, nada, zip zilch zero as far as other AP's or competitors 802.11b AP's. Now, at those same PoP's, I can find on average at least 8 to 10 active AP's. I know all of You have seen this?. While some are just home user AP's, they are there non the less!. Heck, the other day an AP showed up with a -58!!!. I traced it down to a home user that had a 13.5dBi omni on his/her roof. While I have no idea why they did that?(My guess is to provide better coverage in their house and back yard or maybe share their cable connection?), it is insane that a consumer was allowed to purchase that stuff!. If any of You think that we do not have an issue with people violating FCC rules?, You had better think again!. It is not just WISP's but all types of people that include consumers, municipal, school and business IT depts. and a few "consultants" who yesterday where saying "Wendys drive thru, can I take Your order please?" and now today they are spouting out, "I are a wi-fi consultant". I just find it odd that the alarm bells are not ringing in more heads than just a few of us?.

Dennis Burgess - 2K Wireless wrote:
Interesting thread, very good points on all fronts.

I wanted to point out something, something that the guy who was talking
about "consultants" etc.  You are correct in that many people who are
consultants don't know the real world implications.  Us WISPs have first
hand knowledge of what these things will do, what the bands, hardware, etc
is capable of.
A recent "study" was commissioned in St. Louis. This was a feasibility study
that netted some "consultant" over $90,000 bucks from the way I read it.
What was this for?  To see if the city of St. Louis can put in a wireless
network covering downtown.   Hmmmm.  My first thought on this was....

"So the consultant needs to conduct a study on IF you can do this?"   Does
he not know what he is doing? I can tell you I can do it, might take me a
bit to do the necessary research, but hell for that price, I will do the
research, finding bandwidth, contracts, and power/data agreements.
This is the kind of thing that us, using license exempt bands nee to fight.
We need to make it public, that this is a misuse of taxpayer's dollars.  We
need to ensure that this is shown to cut out the small business, in favor of
large, non-local companies doing the work.
A few other things that would help us WISPs out, someone in the FCC ready to
listen to our findings of non-complaint gear/overpowered radios, someone
that can actually say, you get me these things, the proof to say, and then
we will do something with it.  Don't happen very often.  If someone calls
the FCC, how many times have you heard anything back on them?  I have heard
interference stories, even from cell companies, (recent on the lists).

The story about the IT Person telling the WISP to use 4.9, is a prime
example of something that the FCC should be ON THE BALL about.  And also
some clarification on band usages, power limits, etc, where several
questions and things are open to "interpretation", not closed down enough to
be "solid" in court or anywhere.

Just a few thoughts.


-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 1:05 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Widespread abuse of FCC rules, a list...was TV


Thats a good point. WISPs are maturing and as they grow they start to demand

name brand type gear that will let them scale, which inadvertently is usually certified. Thus larger providers using certified gear. With no disrespect meant, I could argue that some of WISP's straying to non-certified gear, could be more of a science project, or trials to test the viabilty of that type product line, and as those trials become successful, they likely will certify gear or buy versions that are certified.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband

----- Original Message ----- From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Widespread abuse of FCC rules, a list...was TV whitespaces

Well this was an exiting day on the lists.

I would find it hard to believe that the wisp industry is in worse shape now than before concerning abuse.

5 years ago when most were new and choices were far and few between, there

was a lot of "pringles" type wisps. Hey, they were the inovators.

But it's hard to believe that with the advent of cheap gear from many new players, I'd have ahard time believing that the vast majority of wisp gear

is an fcc certified system or kit type product, such as a star or mt.

I think we're building a mountain out of a mole hill in even suggesting that this an issue that has to be delt with. The industry has matured in a

very positive way over the past few years.


This is NOT an official wispa stance or position, just my own.

Patrick Leary wrote:
Here are few raw comments that might fray some nerves:

1. The FCC is not a baby sitter. 2. Mature operators (and industries as a

whole) follow the rules as a
matter of course and expected cost of business.
3. You are not the public, you are commercial operators financially
benefiting off the public's free spectrum and you off all users should
thus be a responsible steward of that spectrum.
4. Those not following the rules have no ethical standing to complain
about other illegal use, predatory competitors, lack of spectrum, etc.

As someone who has argued for WISP compliance for years, I've certainly
been alarmed by what I see as a new level of non-compliance. WISPs are
now commonly assuming the FCC's lack of enforcement is tantamount to its
approval of abuse. The general attitude is now that there is but one
rule: "Don't exceed the power limitations." Everything else has become
fair game.

Here is a list of things I see that lend anecdotal evidence, if not
actual, that abuse is reaching new levels:
 - many WISPs now believe it is no big deal to use 4.9 GHz to carry some
commercial traffic (Hey, there's excess capacity so what's the big deal,
- use of STA's to commercially use spectrum is openly being advocated
(this is partially responsible for an over 6 month wait in STA filings)
- illegal vendors now operate in the clear with prominent U.S.
distribution (They must be legal if they have a store front and it only
hurts other vendors anyway...)
- "build your own base station" type Google ads are rampant

Call me an alarmist, but this accelerating trend is disturbing and such
attitudes easily even have the potential to infect safety issues (hey,
OSHA rules must not be that big a deal either).

We must all appreciate that many violating the rules do so out of
ignorance, but that as an excuse. Groups like WISPA should take firm
stands on subjects like this. You should strongly encourage compliance,
lead the way and educate. You should fight the ignorance that allows for
relativism and "creative interpretation" of the rules. You should also
not cave to the hard luck excuses that "I'm a small guy and can't afford
to follow the rules." (Your response to such should be to point to
funding sources/advice or otherwise tell them that there is a minimum
cost to legally participate in this business and that following FCC
rules is a minimum expectation as responsible stewards of the public's
free spectrum.) And finally, WISPs should not treat knowingly illegal
operators as equals because in fact they are liabilities to you and the
industry at large.

And yes, of course I have skin in the game but that in no way alters
anything here or devalues my comments. If anything, as a legal vendor
with a long professional reputation of compliance and scores of legal
operator partners, and as an individual who has been beating this drum
for 7 years, it should only increase the weight of my comments.


Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243

-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Dawn DiPietro
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 9:26 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] TV white spaces


Remember, it only takes a few bad apples to make the whole industry look

Think about that the next time anyone wants to complain about the rules.

Dawn DiPietro

Patrick Leary wrote:

I hope it does go UL, but I have also heard some recent rumblings that
the FCC is concerned with what seems like a widespread deterioration of
WISPs following the rules. The phrase I recall is something along the
lines of "Damn it, these things are not guidelines."

>From my view it is true. I see it in conversations that go beyond the
usual, "if you just stay within the power no one cares" to now where
people seem to via the STA process as a round-about tool to get access
to and use spectrum that does not commercially exist.

Letting loose the same level of abuse in the TV bands is something that
will cause real problems for the FCC should broadcasters be affected.
The WISP industry must do a better job of policing itself and
discouraging the slippery slope.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Jack Unger
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 11:22 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] TV white spaces


I appreciate your insight into the possibility that license-exempt

space use might actually materialize. I very much hope that it does.


Steve Stroh wrote:



To the television broadcasters, WISPs using this spectrum in a "we'll

stay out of the way of any television broadcasting activity" manner


the lesser of several other evils; television broadcasting has been steadily losing ground now; first 800 MHz was carved out of Channels 70-83, and now the 700 MHz bands are being carved out of Channels 52-69. The trend is clear, and while it's one thing for powerful terrestrial broadcasting to "share" spectrum with low-power license-exempt usage, it's quite another for communications use to do

the same. If the broadcasters play things right (and it appears they are "bending" towards white space license-exempt usage, but very much

on THEIR terms...) the license-exempt usage of television white space

may serve to "pollute" the remaining television broadcast spectrum sufficiently to prevent future reallocation (for at least another decade or so).

Intel, Microsoft, Cisco are some of the names being bandied about as advocates for license-exempt use of white space television broadcast spectrum.



On Jan 24, 2007, at Jan 24  09:21 AM, Jack Unger wrote:

Likelihood of unlicensed???

My guess is that the established communications carriers and the broadcasters will fight the concept of license-free use of this space.

I expect it will come down to who lobbies Congress most  effectively.

Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
Serving the License-Free Wireless Industry Since 1993
Author of the WISP Handbook - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs"
True Vendor-Neutral WISP Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting
Newsletters Downloadable from http://ask-wi.com/newsletters.html
Phone (VoIP Over Broadband Wireless) 818-227-4220  www.ask-wi.com


Steve Stroh
425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Writing about BWIA again! - www.bwianews.com

George Rogato

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