----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Unger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] My Hypothetical Conversation with Julius Knapp,
ChiefofOET
Marlon,
I was just trying to determine if the problems you're experiencing were
due to:
a) Equipment Certification Issues - Use of equipment that had "dirty"
transmitters.
Not likely
b) Overpower Issues - Running too much power.
I believe so, yes.
c) Uncoordinated Frequency Issues - Legal power and clean transmitters but
transmitting on frequencies and/or using antenna polarizations that you or
others were already using.
The guy is an a******* well, not a nice guy. No coordination is possible.
The only coordination possible for the last 2 years has been ever more
narrow sectors, changing polarities, adding ap's on my end, and larger
powered cpe antennas than we'd normally run. Oh yeah, we do the channel
dance.
Per the original thread topic, I was trying to determine if the
interference was caused by the use of uncertified equipment or not. Sorry
if I didn't ask my questions clearly. Depending on the cause of the
problem, the solutions are somewhat different and the FCC reporting that
you may want to do (or have done) would be focused somewhat differently.
Yeah.
The cure for this particular problem would be either a big FCC fine (not
likely) or a pair of wire cutters (also not gonna happen).
In the mean time, creative use of the available technology has my customers
working better than anyone elses.
I know you'll be careful about not adding too many new customers while you
are experiencing the problem of having your current customer's service
interrupted by this "interference".
Grin. That's ONE site out of around 25 now. There are 15 or so subs
affected. And, there's probably very little that I can realistically do
about it. So one takes care of business that is out there and has a good
chance of working well.
If you get in a bind, I know a guy who is pretty good at helping to solve
interference problems (nod, nod, wink, wink) who you could probably pay to
come up and help you figure out what's going on and what you could do to
minimize the impact of this interference on your system. Hit me offline if
you want more info.
Grin. Hopefully the next time you and I see each other up here it won't be
for a funeral!
I'll get this figured out. Now that I know who owns the essid that I'm
seeing it's just a matter of time to track it down better. Just need to
first contact the FCC enforcement officer that I worked with the first time
and see what I should do this time to create a more permanent fix and a
better case to help him do it.
jack
P.S. - I agree that arrogant jerks like this usually do themselves in and
eventually go away. The question is how much damage will he do before he
self-destructs?
Yeah. I'm sure that he thinks he's only hurting the competition. But he's
hurting the whole industry's reputation and in the end that means less
customers for him. The funny part about it is that I've heard he often
treats his customers the same way!
Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Unger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 9:58 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] My Hypothetical Conversation with Julius Knapp,
ChiefofOET
Marlon,
Thank you for your very interesting post. I would have to say that I
agree with most of the sentiments that you've expressed. There is
however ONE point that perhaps you would clarify. You said that you have
operators in your area "running illegal networks... and the WHOLE market
is suffering due to their massive amounts of interference". Is this
interference due to:
a) The "bad" operators are using uncertified equipment that is "dirty" -
thats radiating high-power spurious emissions that are either too loud
or too wide in frequency or both?
Too many options :-).
b) The baddes are exceeding the + 36 dBm EIRP limit?
They either have a tower that is NOT on the hill and I just haven't found
yet. Or, yeah, they are WAY over the eirp limit. I pick their system up
at a higher signal level than my own even when pointed 30 to 40 * away
from them. It's amazing.
I've not taken the time to track this down yet as the calls have really
just started to come in AND I've only recently learned that at least one
of the other competitors systems up on the hill is getting killed in the
evenings when we all hit peak hours.
I think that what's happening is that their system is so loud that as
soon as it gets busy at all our radios can't hear each other. The
problem affects the close in customers but really seems to hit the long
distance ones hard.
I've been swamped with installs though. I keep hoping for a couple of
days off so I can devote some time to this without the risk of missed
opportunity. But I may just have to carve out a chunk of time anyway.
c) Dirty buggers were/are ignorant of other in-service WISPs and are
operating on frequencies that were already in use by the other WISPs,
thereby causing interference to the other WISPs?
They arent' ignorant. I've talked to the owner. He's the biggest, um,
well you figure out a really bad word for him and mine's worse, I've run
into in a very long time. He called ME up one time and chewed me out in
a mannor that would have done my old drill instructor proud. For what?
For explaining the part 15 rules to the owner of a tower that he rents.
Seems that this guy causes nothing but trouble everywhere he goes.
Eventually he'll run out of money or suckers to get more from. But until
then, we keep re designing our sites near him to deal with his noise.
We're now down to a 30* sectored solution that's running as hot as I can
make it without going over the rules. I think we're about 35 or 36 dB.
From my signal checks, he's either a few miles closer to the customers
(hard to do when the tower is only 4 miles away already) or is cranking
out somewhere in the 40 to 45 dB range.
Or, I've got my facts all messed up and there's something else going on
up on the hill that no one has figured out yet.
I did turn this guy in to the FCC once already. The enforcement agent
told me that he'd never been talked to like he was by this guy. What a
jerk. The good news is that I've seen guys like this before. Eventually
they all disapear.
That help?
marlon
Thank you for any clarifications that you can add.
jack
Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
I remember clear back in 2001 or so. I was fortunate enough to have
breakfast with Michael Marcus. Patrick, i think you were there for
this.
I remember him telling the story about FCC certified computers. Back
in the day, it was only legal to sell a computer as a complete
certified system. Then along came Michael Dell. He said, screw the
rules, they are stupid. He started selling anyone any combination of
certified components that they wanted. Soon, there were so many
systems out there that were NOT causing interference issues that it was
completely impossible to put the genie back in the bottle.
Out of that comes today's way to buy a computer. The COMPONENT gets
certified, you mix and match them all you want.
As I recall, Mike M. said that they (the FCC) knew that SOME
combinations WOULD cause a problem. But that the likely hood of it
being an issue was outweighed by the benefits of the new rules.
We've already had one adjustment on the part 15 certification rules
lately. And it was sorely needed. I remember calling the FCC and
talking to John Reed. One of the guys that WROTE the FCC rules. Back
in 1999 when I get started it as ILLEGAL for me to use an Andrew
antenna on a BreezeCOM system. Even though Andrew made the antennas and
all BreezeCOM did was put a different sticker on them.
I remember more than one argument with Patrick (and others) about
whether or not it was ok for me to use the $60 Andrew antennas vs. the
$200 BreezeCOM ones. As it turned out, I was wrong, it wasn't OK. But
the rule was also wrong and has since been changed.
We'll eventually see more of the rules changed. Look at the unique
connector rule. The FCC certifies EVERY new consumer device with an
RPSMA connector on it. It's hardly a unique solution anymore. Yet
anyone can get it certified.
I do NOT recommend that anyone out there build a non certified system.
Mine isn't perfect but it's very close and getting better all of the
time. But what are we really supposed to do? There is NO government
enforcement of the rules. What's the incentive to obey them? I have
operators in my area running illegal networks and I've had very limited
success in getting them fixed let along shut down. And the WHOLE
market is suffering due to their massive amounts of interference.
In a fight (like the fight for usable spectrum) the bad guy always
makes the rules. If one guy goes to high power, all have to. No, two
wrongs don't make a right, but they do make a more usable network.
It's not completely the WISP that looks bad when these discussions take
place. It's also those in government that turn a totally blind eye.
No matter what gets done in the field.
I'll tell you something about the whitespaces too. The broadcasters do
NOT want to see auctioned spectrum. They loose too much control that
way. They'd be fools to push for that. The spectrum WILL be opened up
for someone. Who's the least possible threat to them long term?
Unlicensed. The WISPs are, by far, the best friend that the
broadcasters have in this fight. We want smart radios, good sensing,
minimized interference possibilities etc. etc. etc. AND we'll
AUTOMATICALLY get booted from any channels that they broadcasters want
to license and get back. There's really no down side to them. We take
all of the risk.
Laters,
marlon
----- Original Message ----- From: "George Rogato"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] My Hypothetical Conversation with Julius Knapp,
Chiefof OET
Patrick Leary wrote:
Julie - "Ah, you want that beachfront stuff with high power. Well,
looking at how many WISPs can't be trusted to follow the rules, there
is
considerable risk for that, especially with the broadcasters, who
tend
to be a vocal and frankly powerful lobby."
:)
As has been posted on this thread, most of the bad guys are not high
powered, we just have self assembled systems rather than out of the
box solutions.
So start your hypothetical conversation over again and replace high
powered solutions with " low powered versatile solutions" and follow
that line of reasoning.
I'm on record of amps and high powered is not good, most of the time.
George
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Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
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Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
Serving the License-Free Wireless Industry Since 1993
Author of the WISP Handbook - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs"
True Vendor-Neutral WISP Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting
Newsletters Downloadable from http://ask-wi.com/newsletters.html
Phone (VoIP Over Broadband Wireless) 818-227-4220 www.ask-wi.com
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