----- Original Message ----- From: "Marlon K. Schafer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 10:05 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page....
> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark Koskenmaki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 9:22 PM > Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page.... > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Marlon K. Schafer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> > > Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 8:28 PM > > Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page.... > > > > > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Mark Koskenmaki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> > >> Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 10:55 AM > >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] from WISPA's home page.... > >> Sigh. No we don't. We have as long as we need. > > > > So the deadline is no more? I read it. There will be no exemptions and > > there will be extensions. I read the rules, published by the FCC. So, > > did they lie, or has there been an update nobody's been told about? > > No changes. I'm saying that you don't have to follow a standard to be > compliant! > Huh? You said "we have as long as we need"??? > > roflmao. Oh boy, do you have me pegged wrong! > > I happen to think that CALEA is a PERFECTLY reasonable request. And I Well, we could not disagree more. > happen to think it's got pretty good safeguards in place. After all, they > have to go through me to get to my customers. *I'm* the only one in a > possition to be able to snoop on my customers via my network. And I know > *I'm* not gonna do that. I don't want to be in the position of having to do that. > > > > >> > >> Instead, I'm more at ease than I was before WISPA started it's efforts. > > > > I'd be a lot more at ease if WISPA was going to stand up for the industry. > > Mark, do you not believe that that horse isn't already dead? There's > nothing left to stand for. Ok. If you say so. Then WISPA has no purpose. > > And honestly, CALEA is about as unreasonable as requiring that people all > drive on the right hand side of the road. Sheesh. > OK, clue me in on how YOUR network is going to be so impossible to make > compliant. We have some very smart people on the CALEA list, we also have > the ear of the FBI. I'll bet we can find a way that you can afford and make > your network compliant. I've already told you. > > Or don't you want to fix this problem? I don't want my industry playing dead when it comes to injustice from Uncle Sam. > > Neither one. The requirements are pretty specific. But HOW you get to that > point has been left up to you. They just want the data. The way you get it > to them really is pretty loose. I know you don't think that, but it's true. Right. Somehow I'll bet that getting the specific data into the format required is beyond the technical understanding of MOST of us. > > I ALMOST disbanded the CALEA committee. There, for the first time, I've > said it. We need to do this though. Not because no one else can, but > because no one else HAS. > > > > >> > >> But, heaven forbid, you might actually have to ask someone for some help > > :-) > > > > Sure. Send over 10 grand. That might do the job > > See, there ya go. Where did you get that number? Oh yeah, from a mailing > list that was talking about companies profiteering via our ignorance. It's > not $10k it's $100k! You must have missed that memo. grin No, marlon. That's getting a building, some new backhaul eqipment, a router, and new site leases. THAT is what's required, Marlon. And that's all BEFORE I buy a TTP's service, or a box from someone, or any other such things. it's presuming that I can somehow muddle through the morass of stupidity on my own. > > Mark, ASK Bearhill, Imagestream, Mike E etc. See if they'll give you a > quote for your network. Then tell the rest of us so we can all either start > sweating more or relax a bit. thanks They have absolutely no clue what my network looks like, how the equipment it's built on works, or anything else relevant. And, no matter what their fee... I can't pay it. > \ > > > >> > >> > > >> >> > >> >> You do have to do it without tipping off the suspect. > >> >> > >> >> You do have to be able to verify it's authenticity at a later date. > >> > > >> > This means you better be an expert at what you're doing. I have a > > decent > >> > understanding of what's asked for, but absolutely NO practical > > experience, > >> > and not even any theoretical education on how its done. > >> > >> Nope. It just means you have to keep something called a HASH file. > >> Whatever that is. > > > > The hash is nothing more than a key file to assure a file is unchanged. > > > > It has nothing to do with the things I mentioned above. > > It's the hardest part of the process. At least as far as I can tell so far. no, it's not. It's a simple command line applicaiton that returns the hash for a file / files / all files in a dir, etc. It's just tht you're going to have to maintain the original raw data, the extracted data, hash files for each to defend yourself when you're accused of falsifying the data by the FBI or law enforcment, or the subject, or whomever. Oh, did I mention that retainer for a lawyer? I guess the price is over 10K now. > > > > >> > >> > > >> >> > >> >> You do have to do as much as you can to help LEA. If you do not > >> >> follow > >> > *a* > >> >> standard, you've got to try to do anything that LEA asks of you. If > > you > >> >> follow a standard then you only have to do what is required by the > >> > standard. > >> > > >> > In other words, if you don't follow a "standard" then you're totally > >> > screwed, unless you have one of those brilliant geniuses on staff who > > can > >> > do > >> > anything. > >> > >> Well, certainly following a standard is going to make things cheaper and > >> easier on us. But hey, that's part of why people should support WISPA. > >> We're putting forth the effort to be able to develop a standard aimed > > right > >> at our industry. Cool huh!?!?!?!?! > > > > Not really. It wont' help me any. > > > >> > >> > > >> >> > >> >> CALEA is reasonable just like emissions on power plants is reasonable. > >> >> Mark, when you were a mechanic you had to dispose of old oil, > >> >> solvents, > >> >> brake dust etc. in specific ways that were more expensive than just > >> > dumping > >> >> it in the parking lot or down the drain. The costs are sometimes > >> > > >> > Sure. We BURNED IT. Got useful heat from it. > >> > >> And put lots of nice heavy metals in the air. Nice. grin > > > > Huh? > > When you burn waste oil, unless it's been well filtered it runs all those > bits of engine up the chimney. If you filtered it, you spent money to do > it. That's the mechanism that the regulators suggest for disposing of used oil, waste fuel, and solvents. Did you know that most trucking companies burn most of their engine oil by mixing it in the fuel? And that the EPA and most states applaud the idea? > > > > >> > >> You burned your antifreeze? Greasy rags? Solvent? Riiiiight. > > > > You did not ask about antifreeze or greasy rags. Our rags came from a > > laundry service. We didn't have any antifreeze to deal with. > > In a garage you didn't ever have old or left over antifreeze? What did you > put in the engines? I didn't work in a general repair shop, Marlon. I worked in a specialized repair facility, factory authorizzed by Stanadyne, Bosch, American Bosch, Nippondenso, and Lucas. We worked on diesel injection systems. > > > > >> > >> > > >> >> transferred to the end user because it's REASONABLE for the business > >> >> operator (or home owner or whatever) to take some responsibility for > >> > making > >> >> this a better country. No shame in that. > >> > > >> > NOT AT ALL. It is NOT "reasonable" to expect the vast majority of the > >> > operators to be able to do ANY of this, from the 24/7/365 phone > > answering > >> > to > >> > the deep technical knowledge, to the redesign of networks to the > >> > incredibly > >> > expensive TTP's. Trust me, Marlon, those TTP's are out to screw you > > as > >> > hard as they can. Competition? There WILL NOT BE ANY. If you have > > to > >> > sign an NDA to get a price, this is worse than the telephone company's > >> > competition- which does not exist. > >> > >> You don't have to be available 24/7/356. Didn't you read the FAQ? > >> Didn't > >> you file your forms? You just have to tell them who to call, and if > > there's > >> no place to call 24/7 you have to tell them when they CAN likely reach > > you. > > > > Ok, so you think all the rules are just looseguidelines? Or they've been > > changed to "preferred" status? > > > > If not, then... they apply. > > No. But there's nothing in the rules that says that someone has to be > sitting at a phone 24/7. So, if nobody answers the phone, and you don't respond in 2 hours for an Amber ALert, it's the 10K fine for non-compliance. I guess we just selectively comply with the bits we can? > > You'd really feel much better if you were involved in these processes rather > than always looking in through the dirty windows. We've been over these > things with the lawyers and the FBI. You aren't the only little guy in the > world. Others have thought of this stuff too. I'd feel better if the people I thought existed to defend us from this nonsense weren't advocates of it. > > > >> >> By the time we (wispa) get done with CALEA we'll have a low/no cost > >> >> option > >> >> for the average company. Some of you will likely have to redesign > >> >> your > >> > > >> > Marlon, THERE IS NO AVERAGE COMPANY! That's the whole problem in a > >> > nutshell. The AVERAGE is going to be very small, since the vast > >> > majority > >> > of networks (by number) are little bitty things with 1 to 20 people > >> > informally sharing something. > >> > >> Grin. Again Mark, you are manufacturing a boogyman out of a shadow. > >> Average is AVERAGE. We all have routers, we all have servers, we all > >> have > >> customers etc. That's average. Whether you have Cisco, Imagestream, MT > > or > >> like I used to do, run FreeBSD routers, won't make much difference. > > > > I have none of those. Nor have I any servers. > > You have NO routers? Ok, well, if you're going to accuse me of lying to you publicly... sheesh. Forget it. > > I guess you could be using a Linksys or some such device. I have a couple > of sites like that. Yeah, we came up with a solution for those too. No > need to panic. < bangs head on desk > Like talking to a brick wall. I DO have some freaking clue what I'm talking about, Marlon. Some device from linksys is going to do...what??? And where the bloody heck do I put this? > > Having said that, if you're gonna be a commercial operator, I'd suggest that > a device as important to your network as your main router should be > something other than a consumer grade device. My equipment has better uptime than the 180 networks backbone that feeds my provider. I routinely find uptimes of 3-6 months, with downtime usually related to changes. > > Also, if you have a device that's a commercial product but not a consumer > based product, what did the factory tell you they are doing for CALEA > compliance? What factory? The software builder isn't even interested, since it was built outside the US. You know, I commented a few days back about CALEA and the requirements of equipment to be built with it's capabilities and that our selection of availability is going to suffer big time. And someone accused me of being wrong, that this has no obligation on equipment manufacturers. > > > > >> > >> > > >> >> networks a bit. That won't be all bad as you'll also have more > >> >> ability > >> >> to > >> >> understand what's happening on your network and to stop things like > >> >> broadcast storms etc. > >> > > >> > I built my network right to begin with. I have no issues whatsoever > > with > >> > broadcast storms or otherwise. I only have to deal with things like > >> > virus > >> > and malware infected clients. > >> > >> Same thing. And guess what, the same choke points you use to either find > > or > >> shut them down, are the ones that you need for CALEA. Cool eh? > > > > Doesn't exist. Sorry. There isn't a single router on my network. Not > > a > > one. And it's not bridged, either. It's 100% RF from my provider to the > > client. 100%. No ethernet, no linux or freebsd boxes, no routers. > > Ahhhh, ok. That helps then. > > There are a couple of things that'll have to happen here. > > First, if all of your ap's etc. are blocking client to client communications > they'll just tap into your upstream and get the info that they need. They don't, and cannot. I have to have client to client communication in order to manage/update/monitor things. Oh, and that's not compliance. > > If not, there's a mechanism in place for the LEA to direct intercept the RF > from your ap's. You'll have to tell them which ones to go after, you might > have to tell them where the customer lives etc. That's not compliance. > > See, we've thought of a LOT of possible situations! Don't be so fast to > panic. yes, they all sound "reasonable", but they are not "compliance" to the letter of the demands. ' We're back to you saying that these things are all flexible. > > Worst case, you have to drop a tap onto the network. There are ones in the > works that I believe will be available on an as needed basis. > There is no physical network to tap into. I've now stated this three times. It is 100% RF. No physical medium. > If you don't have a server of any kind, then yeah, you'll have to pony up > for a box. I believe that an old pIII from someone's yard sale should fit > the bill for as much work as it'll have to do. And where do I put this? I have no NOC, no central point where my traffic goes. My gateway to my provider is a small weatherproof box on a rooftop that's 120 feet from my provider, and it's powered via POE. the demarc between my equipment and my provider's secure location is where the wire comes up from the roof to the pole my equipment's mounted on. I am not allowed to put anything else there. Besides, it gets far more complicated when I add another provider soon. Then there won't be ANY place where all the traffic goes. Oh, yeah, adding provider #2... decreases my bills. Imagine that. > > > > > > >> >> You guys really do have to stop panicking! You're scaring the > >> >> stuffing > >> > out > >> >> of too many people. This isn't a bad law and it's doesn't have to be > >> >> horribly expensive. > >> > > >> > You still do not get it. IT IS WRONG for them to transfer law > > enforcement > >> > duties to us, for their convenience. Dangit Marlon, it's just as if > > the > >> > cops demanded the gas stations GIVE them all the gas their cars need, > > and > >> > that the restaurants feed them for free and mechanics fix the cars for > >> > free, > >> > ISP's give them internet for free, telcos give them phones for free, > > blah, > >> > blah, blah. > >> > >> Mark, do you lock your door? Take the key out of your pickup at night? > > Did > >> you ever put up a fence? > > > > No. > > > >> > >> Now you're just being silly. Arguing for the sake of arguing. > > > > I'm telling it how it is. > > > > Of course, you knew that, right? That's why you're arguing with me about > > these things? > > No Mark. I know that that's probably NOT the case. I suggest that you > touch base with a couple of the guys from the CALEA list that are more > technically knowledgeable than I am. If you say pretty please Mike E. may > even be willing to call you on HIS dime and go over your network config and > your options with you. He's probably the most technically capable guy in > the country right now. He knows what the law says, he knows what the FCC > says and he knows, first hand, what the FBI says. He also knows how, and > has done, the intercepts work. We're not *sure* that his intercept would be > accepted by the FBI. But he followed the mechanisms that we were told would > work so I think that once the testing has been done we'll find out that it > was just fine. Anyway, if there's something you'd like to know about what > YOUR options are (other than ignoring the issue) he'd be a great guy to go > to for advice. IF there was a way to intercept... well, we'd have something to talk about. -- WISPA Wireless List: [email protected] Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
