----- Original Message ----- From: "Lonnie Nunweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Promotion of services on-list


WISPA has "responsibilities" to the Vendor members?  Yikes.  Isn't
WISPA responsible to the Members and Industry first?

I've resisted joining as a Vendor because I disagree with the
commercial nature of it all.  It is not the money, but rather the
principle.  When WISPA was being formed, I contributed about $2,000 in
direct cash and Server Licenses to induce others to pay up, yet I have
never been a member, let alone a FOUNDING MEMBER as some can claim.  I
got real discouraged to be throwing my weight behind the whole things
and the VERY FIRST act of WISPA was to allow Charles to act as if it
were his private list for marketing.  Why did they do that?  Because
Charles gave them some freebies and support.

Boy this is getting old.

Lonnie, there was a FORMAL agreement in place between WISPA and Charles. He paid, out of profit, for the right to use the lists like he did. He was also the first one and we used the experience to fine tune what we do now.

Again, you speak of things which you could/would have known about if you'd bothered to participate in an official capacity, or at least ask.


WISPA has to decide if it is an Organization that is for Vendors to
market to members or is it an Organization for the Industry to
represent the needs of the Industry to Government, and other
regulatory bodies.

It's all of those Lonnie. Vendors are as much a part of the industry as are the WISP. Regulators are a part of what makes us who we are too. So are the customers.

If you'll kindly go back over the bylaws you'll see that wisps HAVE to be a bulk of our board's make-up.

We, as a board, protect our PAID vendors because that's the deal we made with them. They were given certain rights when they put their money where their mouths are. It's an incentive for other vendors to pony up.


This period before elections is a good time have those discussions and
see where all the proposed board members sit on the various issues.

Very true.


I for one would support a strict "no self promotion policy" in ANY
email.

Not practical. People have to be able to answer questions about what they know the most about. You have to be able to help people with Star OS questions and this is a good place to do it.

The line gets drawn when someone asks about a Mikrotik problem and you tell the list to use your StarOS solution instead.

And, those that help with general questions will often be given a longer leash than those that only speak up when it's in their own self interest. Again, it's about the health of the list as much as anything else.

 Keep it to PAID ads (if you need them at all) and limit the
number of those that can be distributed.  A Vendor should be happy to
support the Industry and should not expect a return or special
privilege.

Yeah.  That would be nice.  Not reality though.

Many of our current vendor members are certainly very philanthropic (sp???) though. Many have NEVER posted an ad. They all get 1 per quarter.


Lest people jump on me for self promotion, I'll point out that I
always try and point people to our Support Forums.  This list should
NOT become a free support arm for ANY Vendor too lazy or incompetent
to set up their own support lines.

Again, we don't mind the support here. It helps those of us not using the product make choices to or not to use it in the future. It also helps drive list membership and that helps drive association membership and ad sales.

We also offer, at no charge to the vendors, specific vendor email lists that they can use as they see fit.

 This list should be for issues
that affect the Industry.

Technical issues affect us all. It's also very helpful to know what problems people are having and what they are doing about them. Keeping the customers happy is the MOST important part of our businesses.

 Your troubles with routing or bridging or
particular brand of equipment, although important to you at the time,
have very little to do with the Industry in general.

I totally disagree with that.  It's all important.

There are other
lists for that and also Vendors should have their own solutions to
help you.

Who needs yet another list?


So, this is what my day looks like.  Now I'll get back to work.  We're
building 4 more towers this year and I get to run the Bobcat today.
It'll be fun after all.

I LOVE Bobcats! Those things are a blast to play with. Someday I'm gonna find an excuse to buy one. Then I'm gonna paint it yellow and put TONKA stickers all over it :-)

Stay safe,
marlon


Lonnie


On 5/17/07, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I think the big problem here is that Dee almost never posts unless he's got
something to sell folks.

Naturally, people have to be able to talk about what they know. And when a
person is selling a product he'd better know that better than anyone else
eh?  grin

WISPA needs funds to accomplish anything though. And the vendor members pay 4x what the wisp members do for membership. With that comes some marketing
rights and protections.

Back in the day I spent quite a bit of time talking to Chris Night (anyone else remember Sparky of the isp-lists???) about how to run a good list. The
most important thing is to make sure that people are on it and are there
because of a perceived value to themselves.  This means that folks need
information, from whoever is giving it.  It also needs financial support.
When you start billing for ad content, those paying for it expect, and
deserve, that those not paying for content won't be allowed to post ads.
Especially not blatant ones.

At the risk of offending folks (and none intended!!!!) I'll use Patrick and
Dee as examples.  Both are good guys, care about the industry, are deeply
committed to what they do etc.  Patrick is a paid member, Dee's not.
Patrick answers general questions about issues whether he's got something to
sell or not.  Dee often tells people to contact him for a solution but
doesn't help on list.

See the difference?  If you have solutions to problems, you have to offer
them up, even if it doesn't benefit you directly. In this way you become a vital part of the success of the list. Personally I think one also has much
more credibility.  I don't usually read posts from anyone that's always
hocking a product vs. giving away what he knows so that the rest of us can benefit from it. And no, I don't fall for the trick that friends use to get
each other's names or products out there all of the time.

I hope that Dee does join as a vendor member. I think that would be great. I also hope that Frank (and the other vendor members) can let this water run
off his back.

I also think that WISPA really should do a better job of policing our lists. We now have enough vendor members that we're seeing some overlap and we have
more responsibilities to them.

laters,
Marlon
(509) 982-2181
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)                    Consulting services
42846865 (icq) WISP Operator since 1999!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



----- Original Message -----
From: "David E. Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 7:41 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Promotion of services on-list


> Zack Kneisley wrote:
>
>> I don't feel that ANY promotion of products or services in a signature >> of
>> this particular list should be allowed unless you pay for it.
>
> That gets into the incredibly fuzzy question of "what counts as
> promotion," though.
>
> Let's take the email thread, as an example.
>
> If I'm the owner of SuperDeluxeEmail and post "you should use my > company
> because it's the best," that's probably self-promotion.
>
> What if I say "you should use my company because I'm a WISPA member?" > Is
> that promotion, or an advertisement of the sort WISPA has been known to
> offer to paying vendor members?
>
> What if I don't disclose that I own SuperDeluxeEmail?
>
> What if I'm using a sock puppet to tell people how awesome
> SuperDeluxeEmail is?
>
> What if, instead of being the owner of the company, I'm just a minority
> investor? Or "merely" a very satisfied customer?
>
> What if I think it's a lousy company and I want you to use their > service
> so you'll think it's lousy and join me in publicly bad-mouthing them?
>
> There's a lot of subtle levels here.
>
> Honestly, IMO a lot of the value of this list comes from the fact that > a
> lot of different vendors are directly, or indirectly, represented here.
> A little self-promotion is probably inevitable, and probably healthy.
> (If you can't promote yourself and your business at least a little bit,
> you won't be in business for very long.)
>
> Giving WISPA money doesn't (or at least shouldn't) mean that everyone
> walks on eggshells around your booth in the ongoing trade show that is
> this mailing list, and doesn't mean that we'll overlook any problems or
> shortcomings in your product. Conversely, if you make a good product, > we
> won't ignore it out-of-hand because you haven't yet tithed. (We'll
> probably encourage you to do so, but...)
>
> If we're going to start treating some folks differently based solely
> upon whether they're paying members of WISPA, this list loses a lot of
> its value.
>
> David Smith
> Employed by [[ That information is not available at your security
> clearance, citizen. ]]
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