What the manufacturer's are missing is a very basic key principle..... Lets look at Blackberry for a second. Whats so good about them? Talking about a minimal weak layer of added value. They offer "Push Email". HUGE HUGE impact in productivity. But the thing is this is not a new unique idea, nor is it a hard thing to implement. Proabably anyone of us could write scripts on our own mail servers to do similar things to our Email users. But because Blackberry is smart enough to realize that this tiny tiny enhancement make all the difference in the world, Blackberry is taking over the high end cell phone market. I don't have stats, but I bet more Business users have Blackberrys than Sprint and ATT direct plans. (Note: Peter R. brought this up at last ISPCON.)
Wireless manufacturers need to realize the same thing. Little things make all the difference. The Wifi market is getting competitive nowadays with things like the NanoStation for $75. But I tell you, that is the race to the bottom. ARG not another system with a 7db CPE antenna :-( But for the quality market, a high end product is very much in demand still, and would sell itself. I have never once flenched at paying $500-$700 for a CPE, in our urban markets. I'm just tired of buying junk. Ironically, I have a radio lnik that has been failing at one of my sites. I've replace everything twice. Still no luck, it locks up ever now and then. My solution was, I'm jsut going to replace it with another brand and avoid any further troubleshooting. Then this Email's point became evident. What was I going to put there? I could put canopy, but to slow, because I have two buildings to serve each one has a 5mbps FDX customer, plus a couple other small use subs. I don't want to go PTP, because I ahve two buildings to hit, and I'm running out of available spectrum and space to mount antennas. I considered Alvarion, but who wants to pay $7000 for the AP, and $3000 for 2 APs, in order to get 54mbps modualtions radios, and give the next 6 months of profit away? I have alot of APs up there and lots of noise. I thought of putting OEM units, but with out the ability to do SCANS that pick up non-wifi, its to risky to not be able to manage my network fast enough. At the end of the day, I left the Trango up there, and bought a $150 auto ping reboot device. My point being.... There are many products that give decent speed and decent price, but there wasn't one product on the market that I could find, that gave decend price and decent speed, that ALSO had the ability to do SCANs that picked up non-Wifi devices. This is a HUGE feature because it allows me to hear my other Trango APs, and lets me know what channel I can switch to that will less likely destroy one of my other links, if I run into interference, and ahve to switch channels. My point is... I'd rather pay $500 for a CPE anyday of the weak, than give up that feature. It the Blackberry feature of Fixed Wireless gear. My point here is not to just defend Trango, but to iterate that there is a huge open market for quality CPEs and APs. It is NOT a saturated tough competitive market. Next to nobody is making a product to meet a WISP's full need. A single feature can justify a product's survivabilty. Whats our alternateive? Buying a $10,000 WiMax AP? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Wu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 8:31 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents > Travis, > > I agree with you 100%...I still think there's a huge opportunity in the > market right now that's being missed for a solid 2nd player (not Motorola > Canopy) in the last-mile access space > > However, neither you nor I run Trango > > If you step back and look at the situation, this discussion is pretty > interesting, coming from 2 people who really know Trango well-- we were > their largest distributor back before they got rid of the channel, and you > probably operate one of the largest Trango networks now > > That said, you've started building out your network with different access > solutions, and we're doing other stuff > > It looks like we've both moved on... > > -Charles > > ------------------------------------------- > WiNOG Wireless Roadshows > Coming to a City Near You > http://www.winog.com > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Travis Johnson > Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 5:02 PM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents > > Charles, > > How about selling hundreds of AP's and thousands of SU's to a single > customer... and now that's gone. > > I understand selling a $10k radio has more profit than a few AP's and > SU's, but I am only ever going to buy a "few" of the $10k radio sets, > compared with literally thousands of SU's over the years. > > Travis > Microserv > > Charles Wu wrote: > > Trango is a very opportunistic company ran by a smart and opportunistic > individual, and Z tends to chase the market that makes Z the most money > (can't really blame him, as every small business / entrepreneur ultimately > employs a similar type of strategy)...at this juncture, their cheap > licensed backhaul is probably creating more buzz and profitability for > them than trying to develop a multi-point line in a market that's > currently racing to the bottom... > > > > Think about it, if you were a radio manufacturer, and you could sell a > $8-10k backhaul to a single customer that probably has the same amount (if > not more) of margin vs selling several hundred SUs to about 30-50 > different WISPs, which would you pick? > > > > That said, the good news about Trango is that they're privately held (by > Z), profitable, and not really in danger of going out of business...the > only thing you can blame them for is not being true to their promises in > 2004/2005 about an upgrade path for their multi-point product line > > > > So yell at them for not being willing to take a "longer-term" view of the > market, but with the rapid change in today's market, is this really even > possible? > > > > Broken promises in telecom are nothing new > > > > Motorola's No-SM left behind program (that got "left behind" with the > Canopy 400 series product) > > Wi-LAN's WiMAX Upgrade Guarantee (they went out of business and I doubt > EION Wireless is going to honor those contracts) > > Remember KarlNet? > > > > Think that's bad...look elsewhere in the Telecom market...anyone ever > heard of CopperCom =) > > > > -Charles > > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > > WiNOG Wireless Roadshows > > Coming to a City Near You > > http://www.winog.com > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson > > Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:04 PM > > To: WISPA General List > > Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents > > > > Hi, > > > > You are correct... my mistake. > > > > However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 > > (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. > > Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? > > Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( > > > > Travis > > > > > > Charles Wu wrote: > > > > Travis, > > > > The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a > systems > > > > The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my > understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on > hold / discontinued > > > > -Charles > > > > ------------------------------------------- > > WiNOG Wireless Roadshows > > Coming to a City Near You > > http://www.winog.com > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson > > Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM > > To: WISPA General List > > Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents > > > > What about Trango? > > > > Charles Wu wrote: > > > > So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? > > > > > > > > > > > > Mini-PCI: > > > > Ubiquiti > > > > Zcomax > > > > > > > > Vendor Solutions: > > > > Tranzeo > > > > Alvarion > > > > Vecima/WaveRider > > > > Wu-Wu Special* > > > > > > > > *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) > > > > > > > > -Charles > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Charles Wu" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]><mailto:[EMAIL > PROTECTED]><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: "WISPA General List" > <wireless@wispa.org><mailto:wireless@wispa.org><mailto:wireless@wispa.org><mailto:wireless@wispa.org> > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents > > > > (as there seems to be a resurgence of "puff" in this space) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel > > > > free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector > > > > > > > > configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver > > > > > > > > approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is > > > > > > > > supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same > > > > > > > > BSU. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there > > > > that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as > > > > to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties > > > > of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, > > > > not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes > > > > don't do much in the presence of noise > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when > > > > you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x > > > > the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in > > > > the crowded 900 MHz band. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, > > > > > > > > Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The "concept" of interoperability is one of the most "oversold" features > > > > of WiMAX which needs to be explained... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fictitious Scenario: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to > > > > enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features > > > > (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are > > > > customized to each user...blah blah blah > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a > > > > few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, > > > > I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS > > > > from me right now and (b) the concept of "WiMAX interoperability" story > > > > gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / > > > > upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've > > > > deployed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business is > > > > doing good...so good in fact that 2 customers want to upgrade to a > > > > "premium" service that requires features not currently supported on Brand > > > > A AP. Luckily, I have a "WiMAX" system so I go upgrade Brand A AP with > > > > Brand X. Common sense would lead me to believe that Brand X would support > > > > all of my CPE's features, plus supporting the enhanced feature of UGS that > > > > I need > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry, isn't going to work > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As things turn out, the only "interoperability" testing done between Brand > > > > A CPEs and Brand X APs were done at the Best Effort feature set (basic > > > > Ethernet connectivity)...additionally, Rf interoperability was done at a > > > > 3.5 MHz channel size, and I've been running Brand A at 10 MHz to maximize > > > > my throughput (oh, and Brand X only supports 3.5 MHz, 5 MHz & 7 MHz > > > > channel sizes)...so to get this interoperability, I lose all of my rTP / > > > > VoIP prioritization for my entire network, or I have to go out and replace > > > > my 20 Brand A CPEs that are running VoIP with Brand X CPEs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oops > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's the moral of the story? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ultimately, unless you're willing to run your network at the lowest common > > > > denominator, you're basically buying into a proprietary system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Better RF performance ( even with siso systems ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Better RF performance as compared to what? And in what vein? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can easily "slant" the argument the other way by bringing up an example > > > > where a proprietary system outperforms WiMAX > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Noise Immunity: Are you saying that WiMAX has better noise immunity that > > > > Canopy (OFDM vs. FSK...yeah right) > > > > > > > > NLOS: Are you saying that WiMAX can do better NLoS than 900 MHz? > > > > > > > > Urban Reflective NLOS: Are you saying that WiMAX can do better Urban NLoS > > > > than a MIMO-based 1024-FFT OFDM system? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. NLOS performance ( OFDM+OFDMA = More difficult shots obtain link ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See above > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. Better QOS support, and service flows ( UGS, NRTPS, ETC can be ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There can be an argument made that the WiMAX MAC is much more > > > > sophisticated than the Canopy / Alvarion VL / Trango / Tranzeo / CSMA-CA > > > > systems on the market today...that said, don't forget that there is a > > > > $$$COST$$$ for this sophistication...namely, you effectively lock yourself > > > > into a "proprietary" implementation of your WiMAX system > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. Greater scalablity ( Single sector can support hundreds of > > > > > > > > subscribers, our platform supports 30,000 pps ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WiMAX in it's true tested and interoperable state maxes out at an > > > > aggregate "throughput" range of ~10 Mbps per AP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To get better performance (up to 20 Mbps / AP), I give up interoperability > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 7. Support for multiline VOIP out of box ( UGS + 30K PPS ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At the expense of interoperability > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 8. Sub 350 cpe shipping today ( in 100 packs, less with frame order > > > > > > > > commitments putting your cost sub 300 ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ubiquiti Lightstations are sub-$100 > > > > > > > > Tranzeos / Deliberant / whatever are in the $100-200 range > > > > > > > > Motorola Canopy / Alvarion is in the $200-300 range > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, and they (just like WiMAX) are basically proprietary > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 9. Carrier class systems vs Wisp class ( True 99.999% uptime solutions > > > > > > > > available for base station equipment, reducing downtime and truck rolls > > > > > > > > ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Carrier Class = $10k APs > > > > > > > > If you're willing to spend $10k for an AP - you can get a proprietary > > > > 'WISP' system that has all the "carrier-class" features of "WiMAX" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 10. Carrier class network management systems that simplify provisioning > > > > > > > > and management of subscribers and base stations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lol...I find this amusing...as the WiMAX specification "overcomplicates" > > > > the provisioning process, so you now have the need to purchase a system to > > > > simplify provisioning so it will work like a Canopy / Trango / Tranzeo / > > > > Alvarion =) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Supply and Demand at its best =/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That said, if you are still interested in WiMAX after this "cold dose of > > > > reality," we have plenty of radios in stock =) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Charles > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > WISPA Wants You! 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