My numbers are a couple years old, but I'll throw them out there... $300k for a 20 year IRU on fiber into 3 major carrier hotels in Chicago. $20k to bring the fiber to my NOC from the route. $20k - $30k for all optics, routers, etc.
$500/month per carrier hotel for space. $0 - $500/month per cross connect. $500/month per exchange to join, though not necessary for private peering (direct link to the carrier's gear instead of going to a public switch) At that stage, I'd have connectivity to the following networks: CIFNet GoWebMan Limelight (both exchanges) Alentus Alpha Red Atlantic Metro BitGravity Honeycomb ISC Mzima (International carrier) OpenDNS Packet Clearing House Steadfast Tiscali (International carrier) Ubiquity (not the same we all know) Voxel (International carrier) WBS Connect (International carrier) WV Fiber (International carrier) Your.org Akamai and Google are in the process of connecting. Obviously not necessary for my current operations, but a good value if I had many of your networks where I am. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -------------------------------------------------- From: "Sam Tetherow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:54 PM To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information > So how much would 10GigE be to your NOC? > > Sam Tetherow > Sandhills Wireless > > Mike Hammett wrote: >> Depends on where it's coming from. As I said, a 10 GigE to the CDNs >> (which >> is where most of the bandwidth is going to be going these days), the >> price >> is just equipment and cross connects. Public Peering with route servers >> (depending on the exchange) gets you 10 GigE for $500 (definitely not >> Equinix). >> >> There are transport costs, but 10GigE equipment isn't THAT expensive. >> >> I'm not saying it's free, but it's damn cheap. >> >> People will use pay as you go to reduce usage of their antiquated >> equipment >> instead of cost recovery for better gear and MRC. >> >> >> ----- >> Mike Hammett >> Intelligent Computing Solutions >> http://www.ics-il.com >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Sam Tetherow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 1:50 PM >> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information >> >> >>> Mike Hammett wrote: >>> >>>> The billing model is irrelevant if the gear can't do it in the first >>>> place. >>>> You could charge $10/megabyte transferred and it would be meaningless >>>> if >>>> you >>>> can't deliver what the customer wants. >>>> >>>> >>> Wants and willing to pay for a two different things. I want a AC Cobra >>> and I want to be able to drive it as fast I can on the highway, however >>> I'm not ready to pay for either ;) I have always said I can deliver >>> what the customer wants if the customer is willing to pay for it. >>> >>> >>>> Yes, the standard billing model needs to change, but using it as an >>>> artificial barrier isn't exactly the best thing to do, even if it is >>>> the >>>> only thing you can do at this time. >>>> >>>> >>> I don't see how charging by the bit is an artificial barrier. Do you >>> think charging for gas by the gallon is an artificial barrier? As ISPs >>> we have a commodity that we sell, bandwidth. We pay a fixed price for >>> that bandwidth and then resell that bandwidth to our customers at a >>> markup to cover operating expense and a reasonable return on investment. >>> >>> Charging a customer by their actually usage is the most 'real' method of >>> billing. In fact the unlimited model is the artificial one that is used >>> to entice people into buying. If the customer always fully utilized >>> their $30/month worth of bandwidth you would go broke. >>> >>>> It would be silly for fiber based networks to charge for usage at this >>>> time. >>>> They have no practical capacity limits. Go ahead, pull 100 mbit/s on >>>> your >>>> $75/month account... it costs them almost nil on a recurring basis >>>> because >>>> of 10GE connections to the CDNs... limelight, akami, Youtube, etc. >>>> >>>> >>> There is always a practical limit. Are you telling me that fiber >>> providers are paying $0.75/mbit/s for their upstream? >>> >>> Sam Tetherow >>> Sandhills Wireless >>> >>> >>>> Networks would rather you pull 100 megs from a CDN because of the high >>>> capacity low price links to them, instead of going over peering >>>> sessions >>>> with other networks, which usually have more contractual restriction. >>>> >>>> Let me restate the issue... There is almost zero cost in connecting to >>>> the >>>> networks that house the big bandwidth intensive sites. >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- >>>> Mike Hammett >>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions >>>> http://www.ics-il.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>> From: "Sam Tetherow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 12:50 PM >>>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org> >>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> I couldn't imagine how the logistics of this would work. What makes >>>>> sense is if your customer uses more bandwidth, then they pay for it. >>>>> Everything else is just an inefficient way to do the same. >>>>> >>>>> Lets say you are going to charge $150/Mb/month for 95% usage (just >>>>> picked a number). If the customer pays the bill for their usage 100% >>>>> comes to you. Now lets say that we have come up with some efficient >>>>> scheme to accurately bill the various content providers for their >>>>> 'usage'. If we need $150/Mb/month and bill at that rate to say >>>>> Netflix, >>>>> do you think that Netflix is going to have $0 overhead on accounts >>>>> payable for that bill? Do you think they are going to take a loss on >>>>> that expense? So it is going to cost the end customer >>>>> $150/Mb/month+$x. >>>>> >>>>> This cost will be averaged out to each customer based on total usage. >>>>> As the service becomes more popular then the price is going to go up. >>>>> Wait, doesn't this sound familiar? The problem with selling a >>>>> commodity >>>>> is that supply and demand laws do apply. The more the demand the less >>>>> the supply. We don't get economy of scale savings in last mile on >>>>> wireless gear. We have a very finite amount of bandwidth we can >>>>> effectively deliver from an AP/tower. >>>>> >>>>> Marlon is the one ahead of the curve on this one (and all the others >>>>> that have been billing based on usage already). This is most likely >>>>> where we are going to end up. I don't necessarily think it will be >>>>> down >>>>> to $x/GB transfer it will at least be tiered service similar to cell >>>>> phone plans today. >>>>> >>>>> Where WISPs run into the issue is in the short term. We have to >>>>> survive >>>>> the market until the billing model changes. Eventually Cable and >>>>> Telco >>>>> (and even Fiber at some point) is going to have to switch from >>>>> unlimited >>>>> to some form of metered (Comcast and Time Warner are already testing >>>>> this model). They just have the advantage of having better last mile >>>>> bandwidth than we do and they generally get better upstream pricing. >>>>> >>>>> Sam Tetherow >>>>> Sandhills Wireless >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Scottie Arnett wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I read about a model somewhere that might work. The content providers >>>>>> paid the ISP a percentage for delivery of the content. Now I might >>>>>> could >>>>>> live with that if the economics worked out. >>>>>> >>>>>> Scottie >>>>>> >>>>>> ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- >>>>>> From: "John Scrivner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>> Reply-To: WISPA General List <wireless@wispa.org> >>>>>> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 10:11:04 -0600 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> I think we will eventually see people just leave constant streams >>>>>>> open >>>>>>> day >>>>>>> and night. How many of you leave your TV on much of the time whether >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> watching it or not? This throws off the over-subscription model >>>>>>> which >>>>>>> relates to how many people are using the service at one time. When >>>>>>> we >>>>>>> start >>>>>>> seeing all channels available at all times via Internet with some >>>>>>> common >>>>>>> interface (Netflix, Tivo, Windows Media Player, Real Player, >>>>>>> Quicktime, >>>>>>> etc.) then we will have this problem to contend with as well. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I hope content providers start making all of their content >>>>>>> interactive >>>>>>> such >>>>>>> that viewers have to click something (like ads) from time to time to >>>>>>> maintain the free TV service. This would help them to sell their ads >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> premium and would provide an automatic "off" button for the stream >>>>>>> when >>>>>>> people walk away from the "TV" and do not click something once in a >>>>>>> while to >>>>>>> prove they are watching the content and commercials. >>>>>>> Scriv >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 8:46 AM, Chuck McCown - 3 >>>>>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think the canopy 450 will do something like 30 down and 10 up. >>>>>>>> So >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> could give you 20 simultaneously which statistically could work if >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>> had >>>>>>>> 50-100 on an AP. >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: Travis Johnson >>>>>>>> To: WISPA General List >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 7:30 AM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] NetFlix Streaming Bandwidth Information >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You have hit the problem directly on the head. You think a simple >>>>>>>> Canopy >>>>>>>> AP is going to solve the problem? Let's say you are allocating >>>>>>>> 10Mbps >>>>>>>> downlink on this AP... that would mean 5 customers per AP (@ 2Mbps >>>>>>>> each). >>>>>>>> Nobody in this market can survive on those ratios. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This service needs capped and people that want it can pay for >>>>>>>> "video >>>>>>>> streaming" which is $100/month extra... that would be my vote. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Travis >>>>>>>> Microserv >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Drew Lentz wrote: >>>>>>>> In areas like yours, though, some would argue that is the perfect >>>>>>>> place >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> some type of licensed LTE/WiMAX type of service. Even with a Canopy >>>>>>>> type >>>>>>>> service it would beat down the doors of the telco offering only >>>>>>>> 3Mbps >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> service. As more and more devices have bandwidth requirements, the >>>>>>>> service >>>>>>>> providers will fall into line, I believe. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Everyone has always pushed for more bandwidth, but it as always >>>>>>>> come >>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>> the customers as opposed to the devices. It seems like now, the >>>>>>>> device >>>>>>>> requirements will leave the customer with no choice and force them >>>>>>>> into >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> decision of higher consumption. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As far as furthering the digital divide, I don't think it will hurt >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>> that bad. On the contrary what would be nice to see is the >>>>>>>> communications >>>>>>>> mediums becoming less expensive because of the amount of services >>>>>>>> required. >>>>>>>> Just like the price of bandwidth has changed over the years, I >>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> will >>>>>>>> continue to drop. I would love to see some research data on the >>>>>>>> cost >>>>>>>> per MB >>>>>>>> over the last 10 years and see what the trend is like. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That combined with less expensive and functional equipment (UBNT's >>>>>>>> Bullet, >>>>>>>> the introduction of Mikrotik years ago, for examples) gives >>>>>>>> operators >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> ability to put more bandwidth than before in users hands at a >>>>>>>> fraction >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> the cost. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think more than anything it will come down to a backhaul battle. >>>>>>>> Fiber to >>>>>>>> the node, fiber to the AP, high capacity microwave links >>>>>>>> (Bridgewave, >>>>>>>> Dragonwave, Ceragon, etc) These are all going to be critically >>>>>>>> important to >>>>>>>> aggregate and transport these huge amounts of data. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 11/24/08 1:06 AM, "Scottie Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It will further the digital divide. Rural remote locations will be >>>>>>>> again >>>>>>>> left >>>>>>>> in the boon docks. Where I live, 3 meg DSL is the fastest available >>>>>>>> connection >>>>>>>> at $75/mth. Cheapest T1 here is over $600/mth, and fiber? forget >>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>> can't >>>>>>>> get >>>>>>>> it unless you want to build about 4 towers just to backhaul, or pay >>>>>>>> $1200/mth >>>>>>>> for each cell tower to put them on. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Why should the small ISP's foot the bill for Netflix and these >>>>>>>> companies >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> are making million's of dollars more than we are? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Scottie >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- >>>>>>>> From: Drew Lentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>>>> Reply-To: WISPA General List <wireless@wispa.org> >>>>>>>> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2008 00:41:41 -0600 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm all for open systems. Limiting the amount of bandwidth at >>>>>>>> any >>>>>>>> level >>>>>>>> is, >>>>>>>> to me, a terrible thing to do. I understand that it doesn't >>>>>>>> necessarily >>>>>>>> fit >>>>>>>> the model as it applies to today's business for many ISPs, but, >>>>>>>> maybe >>>>>>>> its >>>>>>>> time to change the model. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is where the separation of providers starts to take shape. The >>>>>>>> networks >>>>>>>> that can handle these loads and supply the end-user are going to >>>>>>>> win >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> customers. I honestly think the demand of large scale bandwidth is >>>>>>>> going to >>>>>>>> be fed to the end-user by the consumer electronics market. Look at >>>>>>>> CES >>>>>>>> last >>>>>>>> year. Look how many devices demand connectivity at certain levels. >>>>>>>> If >>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>> current service provider can't get you what you need, there will >>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> someone else who can. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There is some great info here from a recent conference: >>>>>>>> http://www4.gsb.columbia.edu/citi/events/summit2008 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Take a look at the slides. I like the reference to the slide where >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> breaks >>>>>>>> down how much bandwidth utilization there is expected to be per >>>>>>>> household: >>>>>>>> 35+ Mbps (and those are numbers from 2006!) >>>>>>>> 4 VoIP lines @ 100Kbps >>>>>>>> 2 SDTVs @ 2Mbps >>>>>>>> 2 HDTVs @ 9 Mbps >>>>>>>> 1 Gaming device @ 1Mbps >>>>>>>> 1 High Spedd Internet @ 10Mbps >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Scary how quickly it adds up :) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My favorite quote: >>>>>>>> ³By the year 2010 bandwidth for 20 homes will generate more traffic >>>>>>>> than >>>>>>>> entire Internet in 1995² >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -d >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 11/24/08 12:24 AM, "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, 23 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It will be interesting to see how this plays out... the >>>>>>>> amount >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> bandwidth required to sustain this type of service is not cost >>>>>>>> effective. My upstream costs alone are over $50/Mbps. So if someone >>>>>>>> wants to run a constant 2Mbps stream, my raw cost is $100 per month >>>>>>>> (not including backhaul, support, AP costs, etc.). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Wait until people realize that this type of service isn't going to >>>>>>>> be "free" as they think now.... when they get a $150/month internet >>>>>>>> bill, the $40 for DishTV will look pretty good. ;) >>>>>>>> Even the cable companies are feeling the burn here: >>>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/3oufk8 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Or a better story: >>>>>>>> http://news.cnet.com/2100-1034_3-5079624.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am glad to see these types of reports coming out. The cable ops >>>>>>>> and telcos have been rapidly trying to commoditize Internet access >>>>>>>> services and now they are realizing how stupid that was. In my >>>>>>>> opinion, high profile companies that are setting these limits are >>>>>>>> going to help the smaller guys (that's us) "get away" with what, in >>>>>>>> many cases, we were already doing. BW caps are something that will >>>>>>>> HAVE to happen in one form or another. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <RANT> >>>>>>>> Where are all the net neutrality people now? Why aren't you all >>>>>>>> arguing that something like this is not relevant? Isn't this >>>>>>>> something that you have all asked for? I mean, if I sell someone a >>>>>>>> 2 meg connection, shouldn't they (and everyone else on the system) >>>>>>>> be able to run at 2 meg for the whole month? What difference does >>>>>>>> it make if I am buying a wireless connection, DSL or cable >>>>>>>> connection? In a net neutral environment, should it matter that I >>>>>>>> am streaming this type of content? >>>>>>>> </RANT> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I feel better. ;-) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>> WISPA Wants You! 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