Brad,

"Yes, you can even mount a 15' antenna to a tower with 2" legs, but the
antenna will still be attached to a 4" or larger pipe as it should.  The
larger pipe is then attached at several points to the 2" tower legs with
cross members and tiebacks."

That is a good point. However, all the pole to pole kits for tower leg to 
4ft pole, were not any more heavy duty than the Antenna mount.
I couldn't see any engineering gain, with them. UNless I just added likr 
pole to pole mounts instead of two.

Are you aware of a Good Kit, that mounts 4" pole to 2" leg, that has a more 
reliable mechaism for mounting to the 2" leg?

I guess what I'm saying is... What is teh cheapest lightest way, to 
accommodate a 4" Radiowave mount to the tower, without compromising 
engineering?

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brad Belton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org>
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Trango Apex


> Have to disagree.  The thing I hate about antennas (and equipment) that 
> are
> NOT like RadioWaves is they don't fit on the larger pipes.
>
> Something tells me RadioWaves makes their brackets they way they do for a
> reason.  Use the right diameter pipe and preferably schedule 40 or even
> better yet schedule 80 thickness and you'll never need to revisit an
> installation due to movement.
>
> Stabilizer bars are recommended on 4' antennas and included with 6' and
> larger antennas.  Use them whenever recommended...you'll be much more 
> happy
> long term.
>
> Large pipes are not only useful for large antennas, but also beneficial 
> for
> small antennas in the millimeter bands.  The mounts we used for the last
> BridgeWave AR80X-AES link we installed were 4" diameter and weighed a
> hundred or more pounds each.  The "X" in AR80X means 2' antennas...by no
> means large antennas, but 80GHz can be sensitive to movement.  We made 
> sure
> there is no movement due to our mounts.  <grin>
>
> Yes, you can even mount a 15' antenna to a tower with 2" legs, but the
> antenna will still be attached to a 4" or larger pipe as it should.  The
> larger pipe is then attached at several points to the 2" tower legs with
> cross members and tiebacks.
>
>
> Brad
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
> Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 2:36 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Trango Apex
>
> The only thing I do NOT like about the Radiowave dishes are....
>
> The mounts are designed for 4" pole. We usually mount to 3" pole, based on
> weight, availabilty, and ease to work with.  It can be mounted securely to
> 2-3/8" pole, if lots of washers are used.  Mounting to 2" pole, doesn't
> really work. In an ideal world, it can be argued that for 3ft dishes, that
> 3" pole is the minimal size viable to keep it stable enough and prevent
> pivot windload.  But if the only option is to mount to a 2" dia member, 
> its
> the facts. Often to use these mounts on 2" pole, installers will use an
> intermediate, pole to pole mount, and mount a 4" pole to the 2" tower 
> member
>
> pole.  But its a pain in the neck to do that and much heavier to hoist, 
> and
> the antenna is still vulnerable to the weakest link, the 2" tower member. 
> Or
>
> they Shim the Ubolts with a third pipe
>
> The problem is that many Towers have only 2" dia members at the > 200ft
> heights. Unlike a freestanding mast fastened on one side only, a 2" dia
> tower member is usually strong enough for the large antenna.
>
> What I'd like to see is an adapter made, that will adapt the 4" design 
> mount
>
> to support 2" pole.  This would be accomplished by a metal bracket that 
> the
> 4" Ubolts would be inserted through, prior to sliding through the mount
> holes.  I'd have much more confidence in that, than 2 inches deep of
> washers.
>
> Note: this is not a disadvantage of Trango, I see this problem with most 
> all
>
> large antenna mounts, designed for mission critical 4" pole mount.
> Some other vendors have a hole/bracket on the mount, that allowed a cross
> member from it, so a bar could be extended off to the side, to help 
> stablize
>
> it, where only 2" pole was available.
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Brad Belton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "'WISPA General List'" <wireless@wispa.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 2:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Trango Apex
>
>
>> "One thing I did like, the handles on the ODU of the Giga.  Made aligning
>> 3ft dishes a bit easier..."
>>
>> Wow, just noticed this comment and felt this should be addressed.
>>
>> The handles should not be used for alignment as the ODU is attached to 
>> the
>> antenna - suspended with relatively light duty hardware.  This hardware 
>> is
>> only designed to support the ODU and not intended to be used to move the
>> entire antenna assembly.  This is also true with Ceragon, PCOM, DMC and
>> Bridgewave to be sure.
>>
>> The PCOM 38GHz ODUs do have a sort of bump stop built-in that will make
>> contact before the ODU is pivoted and eventually forced off, but still 
>> the
>> ODU is never to be used as a handle to align with.  Always use the
>> built-in
>> alignment mechanism in the antenna mount and never the ODU itself
>>
>>
>> Brad
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of Brad Belton
>> Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 12:42 PM
>> To: 'WISPA General List'
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Trango Apex
>>
>> "I don't understand why Trango did that... my really old PCom links had
>> the
>> waveguide built onto the dish..."
>>
>> One reason.  Cost.  Trango is able to use the same ODU housing for all
>> their
>> supported freq bands by simply making the waveguide adapter modular.
>>
>> The early Giga radios shipped the waveguide adapters with screws & lock
>> washers.  I was concerned this left too little screw thread available and
>> opted to leave the washers off.  Now the waveguide adapters come with
>> screws
>> and instead of the lock washer they have a rubber ring.
>>
>> While still leaving too little thread IMO, we have never striped one out.
>> It is possible your tech tried to tighten one screw all the way down
>> rather
>> than tightening the screws in an equal pattern similar to the way you
>> would
>> tighten lug nuts on a wheel.
>>
>> I remember emailing Trango and recommending they have their waveguide
>> manufacturer mill out a little more material from the screw seat to allow
>> the screw to thread more fully into the ODU housing.  Not sure if that 
>> has
>> been done or if it is in the making.
>>
>> I agree the LED display is gimmicky and prefer a BNC port, but does work
>> ok
>> if you have the align mode on.  Without the align mode the LED display is
>> pretty useless.  We have found it is also not a good idea to be running
>> link
>> or rssi commands from the console while aligning the antennas.  Doing so
>> will slow or diminish the accuracy of the LED readings.
>>
>>
>> Brad
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of 3-dB Networks
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 7:00 AM
>> To: 'WISPA General List'
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Trango Apex
>>
>> One more quick rant... those waveguide pieces SUCK.  They caused many
>> problems (screws on them stripping out, or some tech installing them the
>> wrong way before it was sent up the tower and installed so I when we went
>> to
>> align them it wouldn't work because the waveguide was twisted 90
>> degrees...)
>>
>> I don't understand why Trango did that... my really old PCom links had 
>> the
>> waveguide built onto the dish...
>>
>> Daniel White
>> 3-dB Networks
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of 3-dB Networks
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 5:43 AM
>> To: 'WISPA General List'
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Trango Apex
>>
>> Tom,
>>
>> Quick question, then my response... do all Apex's ship with the fiber 
>> port
>> in them?
>>
>> I really have to bite my tounge... I don't want to get into what all
>> happened (basically I don't want my thoughts made public and the customer
>> I
>> was working for to read them) but I was not impressed at all with the
>> Trango
>> Giga product... I just helped install nine links last week.  All I did 
>> was
>> install and configure the radios, so yes they said 256QAM at 3xx Meg...
>> but
>> I didn't get to test it with live data, etc.
>>
>> What I will say, the alignment LED is a gimmick.  Give me a BNC connector
>> hooked up to a voltmeter any day.  First my voltmeter is going to read to
>> decimals, which is very helpful aligning long links.  Second, the LED is
>> about worthless if the sun is shining on it, you have to cover it with
>> your
>> hands to read the numbers which was difficult on at least one link I was
>> aligning.   Third, positioning on some towers to align the link made
>> reading
>> the LED difficult.  None of these issues are problems with my voltmeter, 
>> I
>> simply just use a strip of electrical tape and tape it to the ODU where I
>> want.
>>
>> One thing I did like, the handles on the ODU of the Giga.  Made aligning
>> 3ft
>> dishes a bit easier...
>>
>> With all of that said, what is the price on the Apex now that the summer
>> special is long over?  Before jumping for Trango, I would encourage 
>> anyone
>> to show me a current quote and to see if I can match it with 
>> Dragonwave...
>> from what I understand I can come damn close :-)
>>
>> Daniel White
>> 3-dB Networks
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:38 AM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: [WISPA] Trango Apex
>>
>> Not sure how many of you have tried the new Trango Apexes yet, but I
>> thought
>>
>> I'd share my recent experience....
>>
>> OK.... 366mbps, 256QAM, Cost me much less than I was expecting. And.... 
>> it
>> just freakin Worked!
>> WooHoo!  Man, I like this radio.
>>
>> I specificaly liked the fact that the all outdoor unit, comes with 3
>> ports,
>> 1 fiber, 1 GigE, 1 out-of-band managemnet, and supports inband management
>> on
>>
>> the GigE.
>> What I thought was unique was that either of the two Ethernet ports could
>> be
>>
>> used to provide the POE power input. And also optionally can just run
>> stanrdard Electrical wire to the Molex connector instead if prefer.  But 
>> I
>> was extremely impressed at the flexibilty in options to install this. The
>> alignment LED is also awesome, that is positioned in a convenient place
>> and
>> shows actual RSSI DB number, as it really speeds up install and made it
>> possible for one person to accurately align it.
>>
>> Also note... The older Giga had some anoying firmware bugs last year in
>> their Betas (typical of Beta), and I finally got around to upgrading to
>> the
>> latest firmwares. (I was 9 months overdue for the task) Guess what... All
>> the problems are FIXED!!  Atleast the ones I knew about. I was really
>> pleased.  I have to say this product line is REALLY coming along nicely.
>>
>> Only thing I caution to be aware of is.... It takes a while to fully
>> understand the relationship of how well your link is performing in
>> relation
>> to what the MSE value of the radio is.  MSE is the equivellent of
>> measurement of SNR and distortion. And the ATPC and Adaptive Modulation
>> thresholds are based on specific MSEs reached. The MSE feature/meter 
>> works
>> good and accurately, it was just an issue of understanding how to
>> interperate it.
>>
>> I was also impreseed on how fast they associate when they are taking out
>> of
>> opmode and back on in opmode. Its super quick.
>>
>> Tom DeReggi
>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
>> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 11:45 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] WiMax delays?
>>
>>
>>> On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Travis Johnson wrote:
>>>
>>>>I don't think this is entirely true. For us, it becomes a "value"
>>>>decision. If there was an AP that would deliver 100Mbps and could
>>>>support 1000 subscribers, I would be willing to pay $10,000+ for it
>>>>today. There is a real "gap" in the products that are available on
>>>>the market:
>>>
>>> I don't disagree with your assessment of the current product matrix.
>>> I don't even assume that ALL WISPs are "cheap".  I am not sure I
>>> would say that even MOST of them are cheap.  But enough of them are
>>> that the middle of the road products you want are missing in action.
>>>
>>>>Next = Mikrotik
>>>>Next = Trango, Canopy, etc
>>>
>>> Since they have fixed their wireless, I'd put MT in the same class
>>> as Trango and Canopy.
>>>
>>>>So, again, why hasn't there been an evolution of products the last
>>>>2-3 years? Did everyone stop normal R&D to focus on WiMax?
>>>
>>> I have an opinion (which I stated in rant form) about what happened
>>> to the R&D.  The Canopy line (which is a very nice radio) is a good
>>> example.  Motorola has delivered a product that just works.  It is
>>> expensive compared to other products sold to the same "marketplace",
>>> but it is NOT expensive for what it delivers.  Better, yet, they are
>>> working to make a new product line that will improve upon what is
>>> available today.  But their primary market isn't the "normal" WISP.
>>> They service companies that are better funded, which typically means
>>> larger WISPs, cable companies and telcos.
>>>
>>> I really hope I didn't offend anyone with my rant.  It wasn't
>>> intended to do that.  I really just wish our industry as a whole
>>> would get out of the hole that we have dug with the "cheaper is
>>> better" mindframe.
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> ********************************************************************
>>> * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation*
>>> * http://www.butchevans.com/ * Network Engineering    *
>>> * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member    *
>>> * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks    *
>>> ********************************************************************
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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>>
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>>
>>
>>
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