Google has been a great solution to my ignorance. It's like downlading from the 
Matrix :-)

From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of Brian Webster
Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 7:29 AM
To: sarn...@info-ed.com; WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] To G or not to G :-)

Here is my opinion for what it is worth:

The post Lawrence put up was worth thousands of dollars that a WISP would have 
to spend in both time and equipment to figure out the lessons he's already 
learned. He posted his knowledge to the group for FREE as additional input to 
the original question. For that we should all be thankful.

If a person does not understand a particular topic or all of the information 
contained in the message they can, one delete the message and move on, two ask 
some follow up questions in a polite manor in hopes that they can gain further 
understanding of the topic.

My father in law has a rule in his house and I try to stick to it in life. The 
rule is (especially at his bar), if we don't have something nice to say about a 
person, we won't say anything at all. It keeps the negativity down. Everyone 
likes to hang out at his place (nice positive environment). It's not that we 
always have to be in agreement with everyone, but we just don't need to be 
doing things with a negative attitude. There are plenty of ways to have the 
discussion in a more constructive fashion.

Thank You,
Brian  Webster


Scottie Arnett wrote:

Ok Jack, I have to admit, I have not read your book, but if it reads like this 
discussion, I have no desire too, unless you 1. either state that your book is 
for the advanced wireless subjects, or 2. Thoroughly describe your acronyms.



FYI, I do understand most of the poster's acronyms, but for the average WISP 
operator, I doubt they do. I have a BS in Electrical Engineering and a BS in 
Management of Information Sciences, not to be tooting my own horn. No, I do not 
work for Alvarion or Motorola, nor do I have a desire too.



Maybe I was in the wrong with my post about the poster's acronyms and my direct 
criticism with the use of acronyms. I also believe your post was in direct 
comment to me about my understanding and involvement of WISP activities. I 
publicly admit, I am not a member of WISPA at the moment, and as long as as an 
acting officer or "supreme WISPA being" is degrading me, I will not become a 
member.



Scottie Arnett

President

Info-Ed, Inc.

Broadband Internet Service Provider



---------- Original Message ----------------------------------

From: Jack Unger <jun...@ask-wi.com><mailto:jun...@ask-wi.com>

Date:  Sat, 03 Oct 2009 22:39:38 -0700





<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">

<html>

<head>

 <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">

 <title></title>

</head>

<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">

Yep it's too bad that many wireless ISPs have no interest in learning

about wireless. <br>

<br>

Scottie Arnett wrote:

<blockquote 
cite="mid:200910040029.aa21037...@mail.info-ed.com"<mailto:mid:200910040029.aa21037...@mail.info-ed.com>

type="cite">

 <pre wrap="">I am reading your response and can not decipher all your 
algorithms? Point that out and I will have a much more understanding of what 
you are scientifically trying to say. Most WISPS have absolutely no scientific 
background!



John



---------- Original Message ----------------------------------

From: "Lawrence E. Bakst" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" 
href="mailto:m...@iridescent.org";<mailto:m...@iridescent.org>><m...@iridescent.org><mailto:m...@iridescent.org></a>

Reply-To: WISPA General List <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" 
href="mailto:wireless@wispa.org";<mailto:wireless@wispa.org>><wireless@wispa.org><mailto:wireless@wispa.org></a>

Date:  Sun, 4 Oct 2009 00:15:45 -0400



 </pre>

 <blockquote type="cite">

   <pre wrap="">I think you guys know most of this already, but here is my take 
FWIW.



I'm not a WISP, but I spent 5 years leading the design and development of an 
802.11[agb] security system. We did our own polling solution based on 802.11e 
HCCA to solve the RTS/hidden node problem.



All things being equal (which they often aren't) 802.11b will give you a higher 
S/N and C/I than 802.11g, because in almost all cases and especially at higher 
speeds. 802.11g has to lower the PA power because of the PAPR of OFDM and 
meeting the 802.11g EVM spec.



It is true that 2.4 GHz can be very polluted. We found the noise floor to be 
really awful. You would be surprised by the number of "entities" that know they 
are way over the FCC max power in 2.4 GHz, but I digress. We once measured over 
300 PHY errors a second on an "unused" 2.4 GHz channel. The number went down to 
150 PHY errors a second inside an FCC chamber, if you can believe that.



Having said all that we didn't use 802.11b at all because it's data rates are 
too low for video.



Also while we supported 2.4 GHz, we mostly deployed at 5.8 GHz ISM because of 
the increased power available there and the pollution was much less, but that 
maybe different now.



For 802.11[ag] mutlipoint, the sweet spot speed wise is 18-36 Mbps. It's very 
hard to keep a multipoint system at 48 or 54 Mbps because you need a great deal 
of link margin and with all cards you loose power as the speed increases to 
maintain PAPR/EVM. For point to point with direction antenna relief you can 
often maintain 48 or 54.



Antennae make a big difference, as others have noted horizontal polarization is 
usually best and make the beam as narrow as you can afford because it raises 
the effective gain. However, if you are in an area where everyone else is 
horizontal it can make sense to try vertical. With some of the antennae we used 
that was as simple as rotating the antenna 90 deg at both ends.



Watch out for crappy antennae, cheap cable, bad connectors, and so on. That can 
often cost you a few dB. In the product I designed I spent more time then I 
care to admit trying to make a very tough loss budget that I set out as a goal.



There is no substitute for link margin, you can never really have enough.



I can confirm that our sweeps with a spectrum analyzer show lots of opportunity 
to use 5 and 10 MHz channels, as others have also noted. For WISPs it would be 
"nice" if chip vendors designed the radios so that you could set the channel 
bandwidth from 5-40 MHz in 1 MHz increments. It can be done but probably won't 
be, although maybe the Microsoft WhiteFI stuff force the chip vendors to do it. 
In WiMax and LTE they are already doing some things close to this. Still 5, 10, 
and 20 isn't bad and probably hits the sweet spot or 80/20 rule.



One of the down sides of fitting a 5 or 10 MHz channel in a sweet spot is that 
it can change at any time.



Best,



leb



At 9:58 AM -0500 10/1/09, Jason Hensley wrote:

   </pre>

   <blockquote type="cite">

     <pre wrap="">In 2.4 land, if you have a lot of noise, which protocol is 
better - B or G?

Is it better to run an AP as locked into one mode or is it OK to do a mix?



Max I want off of 2.4 customers is 3meg so not that worried about the extra

speed that G will provide, but, I would like to know which is more stable?

I've always thought that B was more stable overall but just provided less

bandwidth.  I've gotten some info that may counter that.  What's the

real-world experience with folks in a high-noise environment, combined with

a higher useage AP?



I've got an AP that we've run in B mode only for a while.  We've started

having problems with it - speeds go from 3meg at the customer to 200k and

fluctuate constantly.  We've worked with RTS, ACK timeouts, etc etc and

nothing seems to have improved the stability.  For testing purposes we put

up another AP right next to the one we're having trouble with.  Switched two

of our gaming clients to that one (setup as G mode only) and they seem to be

doing better, but not quite as good as we feel they could be.  This is on

Deliberant AP's (Duos).  The backhaul part of it is not the issue - we can

pull close to 15meg back to our office when cabled into the AP.  We have

other Deliberant APs that are running MANY more clients than this one so we

know it's not limitations of the equipment.  AP is on top of a water tower.

Have taken all clients off and brought them back on one by one and it did

not reveal anything significant.  With just one customer on the AP started

acting up again.  Swapped radios in the AP thinking we could have one going

bad and still no luck.



2.4 antennas are H-pol.  We have a ton of noise in the area, but we've been

through basically every channel and it did not help either.  Other AP's in

the vicinity are performing fine.  Thought of the multipath issue so we

raised our test AP up a little higher than the other one.  As I said, the

test AP seems to be better, but next to it on top of the tower we can get

around 8 or 9 meg down (locked into G mode), but at the CPE's we're still

barely getting 2.5-2.8meg.



Any thoughts?  We changed everything we can.  The new "test" AP has a 9db

antenna compared to the 13db on the "production" AP.  Other than that, they

are identical as far as equipment goes.



So, back to the subject question though, what's real-world experience with

G-only mode in the field?









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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="80">--

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Author - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs"

Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993

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