Tom:
I'm always impressed with the time you take in writing the responses
you do. I wish I had that kind of time, I barely have enough time to
read them.
Regards,
Chuck
On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 5:01 PM, Tom DeReggi
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Robert,
Still missing some relevent detail...
New WISP uses 2.4 sectors.
Is the Old WISP boy also using 2.4G sectors?
As well, is the Rocket gear Single Pol or MIMO dual pol gear?
Expecially, is the new provider's 5.8G PTP and Rocket Sectors MIMO?
Legally- Part15 means everyone must deploy assuming the risk that
there could be interference. There are two potential outcomes. 1)
Coordination and cooperation or 2) survival of the fittest. This
might also come down to who has the best contract with the grain
towers. Whether anyone gained solid non-interference clauses or
spectrum exclusivity clauses in their contracts, versus hand shake
deals.
I dont agree with the assessment that the problem is the Old Boy's
"bad" design or unwillingness to change. (see below for justification)
The fact is, he was there first and had the flexibility to design
optimally for his need, and there was really no need for him to
design for the new providers need, becaue the new provider did not
exist at that time. At the end oif the day, he has pre-existing
custoemrs that need him and that he needs revenue from, and he
isn;t going to bail on that pre-existing money tree, that has been
in motion for years. He will fight harder than the new provider
because, he has more at stake to protect, even though it may be on
a smaller scale.
Both parties are equally obligated to build their networks as
interference resilent as possible. But there are multiple
dissimilar approaches to accomplishing that that is jsut as good
as another. So who's to say what is ultimately the best practice.
Its tough for a company who has built a network on a single pol
and 20Mhz design, and change to a dual pol 10Mhz design.
Whats less efficient? Dual Omnis each single pol, or two sectors
with dual pol? Omnis are not always bad, IF there is adequate
physical obstruction isolation between grain towers, and using
polarity as a mechanism of interference isolation also helps. If
some else is operating on 20Mhz, a new provider on 10Mhz may not
help, because it still steps on half the 20Mhz channel.
I'd argue that the best way to coexist is to get rid of the Dual
Pol on the New provider's Mimo rockets, IF THEY are using Dual POl
MIMO. If Old BOy is using Omnis everywhere he likely is using
Verticle pol everywhere. So, New WISP should physically CAP the
verticle pol on their Rocket radios, and leave Chain Zero on
Horizontal polarity only. Then move new WISP back to 20Mhz if you
need to to regain the capacity. Problem solved. But if you rely
on polarity as the mechanism of isolation, it simplifies
everything, so much easier than channel coordination. Remember
that Polarity isolation often has much better isolation than
adjacent channel isolation. With OFDM you really need 20db of SNR
min, and polarity isolation will get you that. Its hard to get
that without polarity isolation. Bottom line is, if you both
choose a different polarity, and stick to it, you wont interfere
with each other, just with yourself. But, self-interference is
much easier to isolate, when you know everything about your own
network, and can make the best choices and trade off for your
network. And you can make those changes without answering or
coordinating with someone else. Thats the benefit of relying on
Pol isolation. If old boy is using Omni, and new WISP is using
sectors, its a perfect situation for old boy to take Verticle and
New WISP to take Horizontal.
Dont get me wrong, I love Ubiquiti MIMO when I can use
it, but MIMO has a major flaw, and that is co-existing with
others is much more difficult, expecially if they are using 20Mhz
gear.
I hate to say it, but ethically, I'd side with Old WISP boy.
Comming in new with MIMO gear would surely going to cause
interference to pre-existing deployments, and the MIMO would
restrict your flexibility to resolve. If a new provider came in
with UNiquiti standard (non MIMO model), Id call it even more
irresponsbile. Bulilt-in spectrum analyzers are NEEDED in today's
day and age to adeqautely co-exist.
To be honest... I really think the burden to prevent interference
belongs to the new installer during installation. An installtion
should not continue, if its known to cause interference. This is
the reason its so important for Freq Spectrum Analyzers to be
built-in to all APs. Thats the biggest benefit to Ubiquiti-M ! Did
the new provider scan before they deployed? Or did they just make
a template and start putting it up accross all the grain towers
everywhere? 2.4Ghz does not have a lot of channels to share, and
its pushing it to come in enw and overbuilding a pre-existing 2.4
network, as it would be almost guarateed to cause some
interference. Ive never respected the Built first by brute force,
and deal with it later approach, while pre-existing boy's
customers scream outage. All that does is create animosity
that maybe the new WISP things they can just come in and run over
everybody without consequences.
Dont automatically assume that sectoring the Old Boy's network
will solve the problem. It depends on where the interference is.
If he has an Omni he's only using one channel, and when he adds
sectors he'll be using three, that will be scarces to come by. For
secorization to help enough, you'd need to be confident that the
towers are far enough apart, that the channel reuse will be
possible. And its also possible that some omni locations may not
support sectors cosmetically. Such as if he uses a home on tall
ground as relay points.
The good news is that sectorization no longer has to be expensive,
When Rockets and antenna can be had for under $250. (Allthough
there is still cabling, Arrestors, switches , etc that add up).
So maybe Old WISP Boy could also benefit from sectorization in
some places, to justify his own cooperation.
You also were not clear on whether primary interference was on
the 2.4G or 5.8G, backhauls or sectors?
As well, I'd suggest fully exploring whether all the available
freq ranges are being used to their potential to avoid
interference. For example... I'm sure 5.8Ghz is being used for
sectors mostly, because that is what is FCC legal to use with
Ubiquiti. But what about the backhauls? 5.3 and 5.4 backhauls can
go 7-10 miles, with 2-3ft dish on both ends. HAve the backhauls
been converted to 5.3-4?
I agree that switching sectors from 2.4 to 5.8 or 5.3/4 likely
wont work against the foliage and trees. But, if interference is
at 5.8, you may very well do OK with 5.3/4 PTPs for backhaul.
If your interference is at 2.4G, dont lock your self down to that.
You mentioned that you are trying 3.65, but dont forget 900Mhz.
Sure its lower capacity, but it will help with the trees.
I'll also note... Dont just assume its equally the responsibility
for old boy to pay to rebuild his network to accommodate a new
arrival. In all my tower contracts, I have first in protection.
If a new arrival wants me to change my infrasstructure to make
room for them to also deploy, IF I agree, the new arrival is
responsbile for paying the cost to cover my relocation or change
plan.
As well, lets look at it from the old boys perception. He
considered the grain towers his home market. Then some new guy
comes to town, and takes ALL the grain towers away from him, and
takes away the old boy's expansion market. Old boy feels violated
by New Boy. If I were the NEw WISP, I'd not only worry about
interference, but I'd also worry about behind the scene
retaliation. How far would someone go to protect their home?
Vandalism? Bad mouthing? Intentional interference? Its a risky
business to go overbuild someone's home market.
What I can tell you is that with 2.4Ghz, a survival of the fittest
spectrum battle will not have any winners, there just isn't enough
spectrum in 2.4Ghz.
The ONLY way to work it out has to be to work it out amicably. It
really doesn;t matter how many times the Old boy pciks up the
phone to call new WISP, the calls are never gonna stop until teh
Old Boy doesn't have itnerference. If his interference is not
solved, he'll make sure he puts you in a position, where you'll be
calling him soon enough to try to resolve interference.
When it comes to unlicensed RF, its an equal playing field, the
small guy doesn't have to accept being pushed around or bullied by
the bigger guy, and I'm sure that is what the samller guy feels,
whether its true or not..
Also, no need to be consistent everywhere. There is no reason you
cant use two 2.4 sectors ata tower and have the third sector be
3.65, if only one direction is a pain point. For example,
everywhere facing one of Old Boy's towers use 3.65 or 900.
As well, dont assume 5-10 miles sector coverage is to long. That
is a common distance built into many WISP networks, to make
it possible for a ROI in a rural market.
LAstly, the new WISP is lighting up tons of new grain towers. Old
boy has 60 subs. How many towers could Old Boy realistically have
with only 60 customers?
This really doesn't sound like such a difficult challenge to
resolve. If new WISP is lighting up tons of grain legs (aka lots
of markets), It wouldn't be that painful to stay off old Old
Boy's network area, it cant be all that large?
I can give an example of one of our markets, where there are about
400 homes and three WISPs, where 900Mhz is the ONLY option.. .
I use sectors, they tend to use Omnis. We manage to co-exist.
Omnis are plusses, because I know their is a financial incenticve
for them to select Verticle pol, so when I use sectors it makes it
much easier for me to steer around them. And I'm not greedy. I
let them have their 50 subs, closest to their towers, and wouldn't
ever think about marketing their backdoor step..
I'd rather focus on the 200 customers in the other direction that
I'm closer to. There is enough market to go around. All new
undeployed markets are fair game to who get their first.
So summary of recommendation....
1) Check contractual protections in both WISP's grain tower contracts.
2) Try each picking a unique exclusive polarity for their radios.
3) ONly Deploy AP and BAckhaul radios that have built-in spectrum
analyzers. (Ubiquiti-M or Trango Tlink). If using Ubiquiti and
MIMO, for Rockets cap off chain 1 antenna to disable, or using
Bullets that are single pol MIMO.
4) Use 5.2/4 for backhauls everywhere possible.
5) Where non-interference cant be acheived at 2.4G, use 3.65 and
900Mhz.
Also another approach.... IF coexistance can be acheived. Then you
are back at aquisition discussion. How can aquisition be avoided.
Two ways...
1) AP sharing
or
2) Customer swapping.
1- Come to the realizing that two tower cant exist next to each
other in the same market. Agree to share your APs with him, and
and vice versa, at an equal bi-direction monitary rate to each
other. Some APs will get taken down. You will control some towers
and he'll control others. But neither will loose control of their
customer.
2- All your customers next to his tower you sell to him, and his
customers next to you he sells to you. Do it on a 1 to 1 trade.
And stop tradding when there is no more interference. Pay the same
rate bi-directionally, so no dolalrs have to change hands. Then
its just a few phone calls... Hey... let me introduce you to your
new provider, you'll get bills from him now.
Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Robert West <mailto:[email protected]>
*To:* 'WISPA General List' <mailto:[email protected]>
*Sent:* Wednesday, December 29, 2010 9:55 AM
*Subject:* [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
I’m throwing this out there for another WISP to see if anyone
has any experience with something like this or any ideas.
Within the past year this operator was asked by a grain
operator to bring broadband to all of their grain legs. The
operator had the idea of, instead of charging the grain dealer
for the install, to offer the broadband for free in exchange
for using the legs for access points and sell the service to
local customers. The grain dealer agreed, obviously, so he
built out a fairly good sized network. For equipment he is
using all Ubiquiti radios and CPE units and with Pac grids and
Bullets for his back haul and Rockets with sectors at the
APs. Network has been working perfectly.
That’s the setup. Now for the trouble.
There was and still is an existing WISP in the area. 60
customers or so. (Grain dealer is associated with OLD wisp in
a roundabout way but chose not to use him for whatever
reason) It’s reported that boy is in love with Bullets and
OMNI antennas on all of his APs. For CPEs he goes for large
grids and Bullets, I believe. He also pushes it as far as he
can go, 5 miles or more on those OMNI APs. New operator is
using 5.8 for Back Haul, 2.4 for CPE. Old WISP calls new WISP
almost immediately. Interference taking down his network.
New wisp changes channels to those suggested by old wisp.
Calls again, interference. New wisp changes channels again.
Another phone call, he changes yet again. Then drops down to
10MHz channels to give more room. Still the phone calls. For
a time it was every evening he would have to deal with old
wisp and still he wouldn’t be happy. Old wisp then starts
calling the owners of the grain legs raising hell and bad
mouthing new wisp. Leg owner calls new wisp, “What’s Up?”
Old wisp then wants to sell his network to new wisp for
fantasy cash. I tell new wisp, “Chill, don’t even think of
buying that idiot and his duct tape network”. New wisp then
buys a 3.65 license but we all know how long that sucker takes
and the limitations it has with number of channels and the $$
premium per unit. New wisp has been very nice to all parties
and has done, from what I see, about all he can do. He’s
within all power regulations and has bent over backwards to
every request put to him by this guy. (One of the last
comments from old WISP was that he would get a sector and, in
so many words, blast him and take down his network)
Now the latest. Old wisp has contacted the leg owners and has
put together a meeting between old wisp, all of new wisps
grain leg owners, new wisp and two outside parties, one of
which is related to old wisp boy.
New Wisp is at a loss to what more can be accomplished other
than old wisp upgrade his OMNIs to sectors in order to isolate
the RF away from a competing channel.
Anyone have any solid resolutions that he can throw out to old
wisp boy ? Surely someone here has been there before.
Thanks!
Robert West
Just Micro Digital Services Inc.
740-335-7020
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