From the license agreement: <snip>for internal business use, demonstration, testing, education, and evaluation purposes only</snip>
While a great solution for internal usage and development, don't get caught unawares by using it on a production machine (BSA fines can be nasty). Robert's point about the 'web server only' version may likely be the way to go as far as that's concerned.
One other thing we've encountered with MS licensing that makes th Xserve a much better deal is user access. If you use the actual OS login security on a web server, MS licensing can really get expensive. An example is a client of ours that has over 400 users that need to be authenticated for access to the intranet. The choice was us OS login security so they could use all their existing HTML pages on the intranet, or use Witango to control access, and forcibly have to recode every single page to include an object/method call to verify security. They decided on OS security the first time around, and it turned out that it required an Internet Connector license from MS (Win2K server) for EACH CPU at a total extra cost of $3800! That would be doubled if you went with redundant servers. In this instance, it suddenly would become cheaper to buy Xserves with their unlimited user accounts by a significant margin.
This isn't really meant to address performance issues, because I know that Robert has done a huge amount of testing in this area. However, if it's a secured system solution that requires large amounts of user accounts to be handled, the cost of proper licensing can suddenly change the landscape significantly.
Just some food for thought...
Jason
On Thursday, June 5, 2003, at 09:50 AM, Dan Stein wrote:
Its actually $399 and includes licenses for just about everything. Second year it is just $199--
http://www.microsoft.com/partner/actionpack
Scott may have posted it also but I have done so several times.
--
Dan Stein
Digital Software Solutions
799 Evergreen Circle
Telford PA 18969
Land: 215-799-0192
Mobile: 610-256-2843
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FMP, WiTango, EDI,SQL 2000
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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From: "Michael Dittbrenner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 13:52:37 -0400
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: Witango-Talk: Mac OSX performance
Ben
If I recall correctly/ I could be wrong didn’t scott post something from micro$oft a developers package with licenses to a bunch of software including windows 2000 server for like $500 or something along that lines..
Educational Directories Unlimited, Inc.
Michael Dittbrenner
Programmer
http://www.StudyAbroad.com <http://www.studyabroad.com/>
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-----Original Message-----
From: Ben Johansen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 12:29 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Witango-Talk: Mac OSX performance
Great info,
What I want is you supplier on the $700 server. Does this come with the Win2k server license?
Ben Johansen - http://www.pcforge.com
Authorized Witango Reseller http://www.pcforge.com/WitangoGoodies.htm
Authorized MDaemon Mail Server Reseller
http://www.pcforge.com/AltN.htm
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Garcia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 7:38 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Mac OSX performance
I have done a lot of research on this. I am a huge Mac enthusiast, and I wanted to go with OS X, and worked very heavily with Andre(stone steps) and Witango when they were developing the v5 OS X version.
There were a lot of bugs in the first OS X version, it would crash under any load, and as they were able to fix those issues, and make the server more reliable, I noticed the server slowly decreased in performance. When 054 came out, I did some benchtesting with Mac and Windows versions going head to head, with the same code, hitting the same database. My database screams, so I know that is not any bottleneck.
I first did a bunch of tests to determine the optimum configuration for each platform, and found that the Windows Witango server needs to stay at 10 threads, and the OS X version can vary between 10-20, but no more than 20.
It is also very important to know that the cache was in complete use on both test systems. It has been my experience that the cache in the Witango Server is the single biggest performance booster. Use cache, and add memory to your system so that you use it alot. Also, when cache is off, your server will be less reliable, especially on OS X. I can cause crashes with the cache off, that I cannot seem to cause with the cache on (at least in 054).
The windows system was a AMD XP 2100 Processor (1.7ghz) with 512 megs of ram running 2000 server and IIS 5. The mac system running on a G4 dual 1ghz with OS X Server 10.2. The database was on a G4 dual 1ghz, using primebase. I find these systems to be good for comparison, especially since Witango only uses one processor on the mac.
I used apache bench to hit the servers, it allows a set number of hits, and simulates concurrent users.
I first tested the performance of IIS 5 on the Windows sys, vs Apache 1.3.27 on the Mac. Apache edged out IIS by about 25%.
I then tested the Witango performance. I tested the servers repeatedly simulating multiple users. I tested the performance on relatively simple tml files, with no db access, and I also tested with a image library taf that pulles info and thumbnails from the db. I found the Windows server to usaually be around 80% faster. It was a big difference. I have a long text document of my results, although I have not thoroughly notated it, and is a little cryptic. I am attaching it, since it is small.
My conclusions and observations: Basically, use windows to serve. My experience is that Windows is faster and more reliable as a server platform for Witango. Also, even if all tests were equal, I think I would still choose windows for the following reasons:
1. As an administrator of multiple servers, witango, mail, database, etc, Windows 2000 is much easier to administrate and administrate remotely. Especially with the free Remote Desktop Connection for OS X.
2. Hardware is dirt cheap on Windows. You spend a ton on XServe. So what if the XServe has better hardware redundancy and should be more reliable. I can set up two load balanced Windows servers for about $700 each, which gives me complete redundancy, which is even more reliable.
3. I am an old Webstar guy, and apache is a pain in the ass. I am completely proficient in it, and deployed with it for months. I hate the fact that you have to restart the server to accept a change. I hate that if you screw up in syntax, you have almost no help finding the problem, so you have to make small changes restart and repeat to be safe. Maybe you type perfectly, I don't. IIS 5 is so easy and flexible, and Webstar like. It is even better than webstar. It is designed to make changes on the fly. It is designed to serve from network shares. I love it. I check security patches once a week, and have never had a security issue.
IMHO, OS X still has a way to go to be a mature server platform. Phil might have more to say about that. I do know that Witango had to go through a lot of extra hoops to work on OS X, and that may be why performance lacks.
Also, some may argue that Apache is faster, and should be used. That is like comparing the speed of a Ferrari and a Lamborghini, and you live in Southern California. You can never get the sucker up to 200 mph anyway, so go with the one that is funner to drive. That is how it is with Apache and IIS. They are both much faster than they need to be. They can fill up a T1 on a pentium 90. The bottleneck is Witango, and your database, not the webserver, unless you use some server that I don't know of that really tanks.
Hope this helps. I spent many, many hours on this question.
Robert.
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