> This issue very much needs to be addressed. I personally would like to > hear what WithEnt.'s plans are regarding these issues.
Well you asked. I will not be taking this discussion online but if you have feedback please forward it to me OFF list. To date you should have been able to download from the site the: Programmer's reference Professional Server Configuration Guide Quick Reference What's New in Witango 5 Readme Tutorial We have also made available a searchable online meta tag reference. We will be providing more documentation on OUR technologies in the near future. This will not include documentation for software written by 3rd parties or included in the OS. We will also be providing generic configuration examples. There are just too many different combinations to be able to document them all. >> what's needed? >> - installers that do everything The Witango installer will attempt to auto configure itself to use Apache, WebStar, the JVM and iODBC but if it fails all the necessary files and configuration commands are in the install directory. The only reason the installer will fail is if there have been components moved in the OS, installed in non standard locations or permissions or environments have been changed. The readme of the installer also provides a procedure and an example startup script for changing the server startup process to allow FileMaker datasources to be used. >> - documentation: on migration of OS, datasources, etc. >From the point of view of migrating a taf from OS 9 to OS X I wish it could be just a matter of copying the files. This is not possible as there are significant differences such as the change from the MacRoman character set to Latin-1. This is a major issue in that a lot of characters above ASCII 127 are totally different on OS X than what they are on OS 9 and it is impossible for us to tell whether a file is in MacRoman format or Latin-1 format once it is on OS X. These types of problems are compounded by the fact that Apple does not ship adequate documentation about this or conversion tools, etc and it is perceived that Witango should write the documentation for them. This is not a cop out it is just stating the obvious. Documenting applications and libraries that ship with OS X are not high on our to do list at the moment. They are in fact the responsibility of Apple who bundle them with the OS. We spend most of our time combating these issues and problems like standard C++ library calls that are not thread safe on OS X (a modern OS) only to be told 15 months later by Apple that it is fixed on 10.3. iODBC is part of OS X not part of Witango. We do not OEM it or install it. We simply load the library that is provided by OS X. How it is configured and the documentation for how it's environment should be set up is really the realm of Apple. The lack of documentation on iODBC on OS X really should be taken up with Apple or OpenLink. We also provide a small section in the read me about iODBC which not very many people have read or tried to understand. Apache is also shipped with OS X. There is an enormous amount of documentation for apache on the internet if you wish to read it. If you want to understand how apache loads its modules and how they are configured, the Apache documentation is the place to go. To install an apache module you simply copy a file to the modules directory and add 2 lines to the conf file. Yes, Apple have made a lot of non standard modifications to how apache is configured and added a GUI that allows a small amount of visual configuration, but it is still apache under the hood. You have to roll your sleeves up and get down and dirty in the config files and hidden directories of OS X. JavaBeans also seems to have been a "Witango issue" on the list lately. Although the actual fix was not sent back to the list, the issue in the end turned out to not be the Server or Dev Studio. It was that the bean had not been constructed correctly and had an incorrect manifest. The answer to this issue was once again more correctly sought at the SUN web site but one of the engineers here did fix it for them. >> (no going and editing this script or >> that configuration while logged on as root in a terminal) The problem here is that Apple does not give you any other mechanism to do this (as with apache mentioned earlier). Welcome to the world of a young unix OS that is still fleshing out the GUI. Over time I think this will improve. We are already seeing improvements with 10.3 that will make life easier but 10.3 will not be released for a good 6 months. >> - documentation: step-by-step on how to install for major types of >> configurations We do understand that people do not like reading documentation. We are about to release Witango install and configuration documentation that has minimal information about iODBC, JVM, OCI, apache and WebStar but it will have sample configurations. This documentation will not be a substitute for reading the relevant documentation for your web server or database driver or driver manager or how your OS handles background process initialisation and startup. A lot of the issues you raised should however be turned into tech notes like the one Christian put up (thankyou) on his site about configuring the MySQL jdbc driver ( http://www.apocm.de/witango/mySQLJDBC.html ) or like the site Scott Cadillac runs ( http://xml-extra.net/ ) . If you have struggled with an issue and worked out a solution, take the time to write the step by step procedure and post it back to the list or post it on your site or send it to us and we will post it as a white paper. Just try and be clear where the issues lies. Is it within the Witango executable or configuration files or part of the OS or 3rd party software. With middleware like witango it is often hard to see where on piece of technology ends and the other starts. To date we have been primarily focused on getting the software back on par with the rest of the industry. Having said all this we are in the process of fixing the documentation. If you have read this far (thank you for taking the time to read it) and have any comments, please remember I will not be taking this discussion online but if you have feedback forward it to me OFF list. Regards Phil On 23/7/03 7:38 AM, "Robert Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This issue very much needs to be addressed. I personally would like to > hear what WithEnt.'s plans are regarding these issues. > > Robert Garcia > BigHead Technology > > On Tuesday, July 22, 2003, at 12:30 PM, Roland Dumas wrote: > >> I am VERY appreciative of the kind of peer helping that goes on here. >> Over the past several months, if I didn't have others provide ideas >> and suggestions in divining how to set up witango, I'd have thrown in >> the towel. At least on the Mac side, there is no effective >> documentation on how to install, configure, and operate the >> environment. One bumbles through, finds that someone has been on your >> path before you and will share hints, or someone has the need for the >> same answer you're seeking and you collaborate. Answers, and pieces of >> answers, age out on this list, and aren't easy for the next group to >> discover. There are tidbits of discussion-like counsel here and >> there, but instruction of how to do basic things? Hard to find. I put >> in 40 hours over 2 weeks to discover how to use FMP and an ODBC source >> on the same server. Other quests have taken weeks of elapsed time. At >> the end, when I have a working solution, I'm happy; then I'm angry >> that I had to discover something that should have been covered in the >> documentation. >> >> This product suffers from lack of documentation. It feels like open >> source without a central and updated state of the art. >> >> My original attraction to Tango was its ease of use. That's a Mac >> thing, maybe, but not having to know the various layers of >> underpinnings is something I've come to expect. You install, complete >> a configuration checklist in a user interface, and you're up and >> running. That's the way it should be. If not, and there are >> considerations, they are logically laid out in an instruction manual, >> which is backed up by a reference document. The ease of use of Tango >> was very compelling. I could whip up a web interface application to a >> database and have it on-line overnight while the perl and PHP folks >> were toiling away for a week. It was that different. They were far >> better trained programmers, while I was more effective using this > tool. >> >> Now, it's different. >> My Xserve arrives and I can either fire it up native or install >> Webstar, Either way, PHP is there. If not, it installs in a moment. >> WebObjects is already installed. For other application serving >> systems, installation is done for you, or takes less time than >> required for a cup of coffee to cool. >> Meanwhile, witango isn't quite ready for release, and when it is, it >> takes weeks/months to get it up and running. Not being a geek, I'm not >> at all sure if my working solution has hidden problems that will come >> back to haunt me; it just works. (I get emails from a few who tell me >> my solution is stupid, but their solution doesn't work on my system, >> even though it's pretty close to virgin.) >> Yes, the other tools are harder to use and require more education to >> master, but in the time it takes to figure out how to get witango >> working, I coulda learned the other tools. I even bump into some >> interesting IDEs for PHP that look like a tango builder. Yup, I can, >> in one environment, configure a mysql database and build a PHP or perl >> query interface that I can tweak in Dreamweaver. The advantage of >> witango is supposed to be ease of use, which translates into $$ and >> speed. So far, it's been slow going and very expensive, given the time >> it takes to solve problems and create my own documentation. The >> alternatives are getting better. >> >> As I see it, windows has some dominant application environments. hard >> to compete against Microsoft's ASP or .NET. If that doesn't dominate, >> then there is Cold Fusion and other market leaders. witango has less >> of an opportunity there to get above the noise. On the Mac, it's less >> crowded, and there is the opportunity to be the leader in ease of use >> RAD tools. Lots of Mac users stuck looking for a path forward from >> OS9, and see webobjects and get scared, or PHP and glaze over. There >> are many who host on FMP or 4D who need to keep doing that while they >> move into more standard unix environments. Witango can be that bridge. >> What's the installed base of Tango? Betcha there's a lot of Macs out >> there running it. Someone suggested it may be a majority of Tango >> installations. If you give them a box that enables them to move all >> their current applications forward without editing them, but run it on >> OS X, you'll get a lot of takers. If you make that install capable of >> switching to JDBC for the next version of FMP while simultaneously >> running ODBC databases, and include all the parts in the installer, >> you've got a winning package that will capture the attention (not to >> mention $) of a lot of people who are lost and looking for the path >> forward. >> >> what's needed? >> - installers that do everything (no going and editing this script or >> that configuration while logged on as root in a terminal) >> - documentation: step-by-step on how to install for major types of >> configurations >> - documentation: on migration of OS, datasources, etc. >> >> If not, users will have unpredictable and large amounts of time and >> money drained. >> >> >> >> >> On Monday, July 21, 2003, at 08:27 AM, Christian Platt wrote: >> >>> Hopoe it helps, >>> >>> Just finsihed my short cookbok on how to connect to mysql via JDBC >>> Just have a look at >>> http://www.apocm.de/witango/index.html >>> >>> >>> Christian >> >> _______________________________________________________________________ >> _ >> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Go to http://www.witango.com/maillist.taf >> >> ________________________________________________________________________ TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Go to http://www.witango.com/maillist.taf
