I agree with most, but disagree with the middleware moniker. I believe that witango with eats its load grouping for scaleability, and its possible 3 tiered architecture with the proper use of business logic in TCF classes, Witango has the power to be an enterprise tool. And I have used it as such. But it has the PERCEPTION of being a hobbyist or middleware tool.

Jason and others have made some good suggestions on what we can do to help with dev tools for new developers and such. What I would like to know, is what is With Ent. prepared or planning to do.

I am not looking at this from an AMERICAN perspective, at least not trying to. But from I can see, the dev community that I have grown to care for like Scott said, is shrinking. At least by the methods I have always measured. (Avail. 3rd party forums, sites, tools, developer exchanges, etc.) As much as I love the tool, I don't want to be a part of something shrinking, because if I wait til it dissapears to move get off the train, it is too late.

I know most is PERCEPTION. But the perception is the same to the decision makers that have to sell our proposals up the corporate ladder.

My whole purpose of starting this discussion, was not to beat up witango, but to say, "What are we going to to about it?" And if we can't do anything, then I know what I need to do. Also, With Ent must tell us how they perceive this, and what they are going to do about it. Cuz we can do very little without their help.

Bottom line for me, I am willing to stick it out, and help, but I have to know what others are willing to do, and what With Ent is willing to do.

I have also been contacted by 2 additional clients, that came to me through this list, both large companies. They told me almost the same thing. That they were also dealing with these issues in a harsh way in there own companies, and were considering a move off of witango. I got the impression, they were looking at getting that done, outside of my help, but it seems, since reading my posts, want to know what I think, and If I could rewrite in another language.

To some this issue may be a minor thing, but to others, it is not. And if I have to make a decision to take 4 large witango sites off of witango, are others doing the same? If I am just anomaly, then witango should not worry, but I fear I am not.

--

Robert Garcia
President - BigHead Technology
VP Application Development - eventpix.com
13653 West Park Dr
Magalia, Ca 95954
ph: 530.645.4040 x222 fax: 530.645.4040
[EMAIL PROTECTED] - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bighead.net/ - http://eventpix.com/

On May 20, 2005, at 11:50 AM, Scott Cadillac wrote:

(Long read)

Every tool has a place, including Witango. But more on that further down.

What's all this hubbub about losing face and blank stares? And who do we
have to blame for Witango not conquering the world? ...only ourselves.

What else do you expect after Pervasive (a multi-million dollar company
serving a multi-billion dollar market) shelved their own product line?

I, just like all of you reading this, decided to keep forging ahead anyway,
after that bomb dropped.

We were positive and hopeful (some bitter) that something new would come out
of it all.

And something new has come out it - great product enhancements and superior technical improvements, thanks to Phil, Sophie, Fergal, Andrew and Andre.

For many years I was a self-appointed Tango/Witango evangelist, and I don't regret one minute of it. Because I made some friends, helped some people
where I could and gained some great customers.

And I got an invaluable insight into the Software development business,
about how perception and position is everything.

So what about Witango and it's "rightful" due on the world stage as a
superior product? I think that nothing short of Microsoft buying Witango can
do that.

****
But I digress. What about now, what about our reality?

We have a great web-development tool, but what is missing from this picture?

~~~~ It's defined place in the market? It's perception and position? Yes?


Guess what? We're blind!



It already has a position in the market, as a solid middleware product - it
always has been. Tango was born when middleware was everything in
web-development, and it had a great ride.

The problem is, web-development has evolved to now encompasses middleware
solutions - and "Enterprise" solutions.

Like it or not, the "Enterprise" buzzword is reality. And "Enterprise" is
the root of Robert's anxiety (and others I'm sure).

So what's the difference between Middleware and Enterprise?

~~~ Middleware, is just glue - that helps to bind different applications together to make one solution. Middleware allows end-users to interact with a database via a browser, or move data from one system to another system. It
can be wonderful glue, but still just glue none-the-less.

~~~ Enterprise, is a platform - a total solution environment that provides end-to-end working, integrated components to deliver results. Enterprise components are typically all written using the same language or standards. It's about conformity. Another way to read Enterprise is portability of code (a.k.a. business logic), and portability reads as savings and return on
investments.

   Where as, code from a Middleware product
   isn't as portable to other components.

Examples of Middleware for the web world are ColdFusion, PHP, Perl, Witango
and so on.

There are only two examples of Enterprise: Java and .NET

What do the Fortune 5000 companies (or likewise aspiring companies) want?

Enterprise - end of story.

Occasionally those Fortune companies may want a quick fix to a simple
problem, so sometimes they employ a middleware solution - but don't kid
yourself, Enterprise is their primary objective.


****
And don't kid yourself either - Phil knows all this too, why else would he
build, support and offer a Java compiler for Witango?

Witango can be Enterprise too, but only with the Java compiler - end of
story.

Anything short of the Witango Java route is simply not a contender for your
Enterprise minded customers - so get over it!!

Don't you see now why Pervasive dropped Tango?

Pervasive had to be an Enterprise provider, and all they had was a
middleware solution in their pocket. To pull that card out would have been embarrassing for them, so they decided it was better to not do web stuff at
all in the Enterprise arena, then to "pretend" they could.



----------
"Rumors of my demise have been greatly..."
----------

So it was a critical decision time for me just over a year ago. I'll spare you the nitty-gritty details. It's a story much like Robert's and others.

The fight of continually trying to convince my Enterprise minded customers that a middleware product could solve their Enterprise problems was just
plain wearing me out.

Is there anything more exhausting and stupid than a one-sided fight? One
that I started myself? No.

So, how was I going to move forward as an Enterprise developer?

Well, it was either Java or .NET.

And unfortunately the rumors of a .NET compiler for Witango never went
anywhere. And the plain truth is Java is just not my cup-of-tea.

Where did that leave me? The choice was obvious - but heart- breaking to
make, but I did choose .NET in the end as you can see.

Anyway, the missing word on the end of my subject line is "accurate".



****
Personally I think Phil and Sophie are the greatest thing that happened to Tango, because they have vision and a realistic perspective about their
middleware baby in an evolving web world.

It's us that have been blind for too long about the reality of middleware
and Enterprise expectations, myself included.

If it's decision time for you, then get off your butts and embrace Java or
.NET

At this new point of reality, Witango is still here for you...on the Java
side of the fence.

Good luck.


****
I may not be as active as I used to be on this List, but I'm still here
because you folks are the best - and my friends.

Take care, and hope this helped a bit.

Scott Cadillac
---------
Weblog ~ http://xmlx.ca
For Hire ~ http://xmlx.ca/forhire
---------
403-254-5002 ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
---------
P.O. Box 69006
RPO Bridlewood SW
Calgary, Alberta
Canada T2Y 4T9


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