Dan,

I don't think we disagree. And, surely, I'm not
interested in disagreableness, but one should be able
to give opinion. I think if you read what I'm saying,
I'm not trying to be funny. The strength of a horses'
heart is measured at the end of the journey, a proverb
says. We can't say poetry is simply by definition. If
so, then something is stilted.

A.

--- Dan Waber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> CatherinE,
>
> There is definitely a problem involving engagement
> with experimental
> writing, both practically and as a matter of
> personality. And I think
> you raise a lot of questions that shouldn't remain
> rhetorical. Since
> I'm emptying my pockets of change today, here's
> another two cents:
>
> > Can criticism be poetry?
>
> Of course. I would even take it further and suggest
> that it ought to
> be as often as appropriate (and I can't think of a
> moment when it
> wouldn't be appropriate).
>
> > What is the role of criticism in new/experimental
> writing?
>
> The same as its role in other forms of writing. I
> don't say that
> flippantly, or as a pat answer. I really think a lot
> of the reason why
> you don't see an abundance of good writing about
> new/experimental/newmedia/hypermedia/etc etc ad
> absurdum ad infinitum
> is because this question is being asked. If critics
> would stop asking
> that question start writing criticism it would be
> moot. There is no
> vocabulary in place with which to properly discuss
> these things?  They
> can invent their own or make new use of what they
> have. I believe
> poetry is the attempt to express in language that
> which language is
> incapable of expressing. So a criticism that is also
> poetry is what's
> most needed right now--if there's a need for a more
> active critical
> system.
>
> > What would experimental criticism, as a
> counterpart to experimental
> > writing, look like?
>
> Traditionally you can recognize the difference
> between a poem and a
> criticism by how it looks on the page. One looks
> like a poem, one
> looks like a prose. Should that change for
> experimental things that
> maybe don't look like a poem? It can, if it wants to
> or needs to. I
> don't think it needs to. I think criticism of
> experimental writing
> could do quite well looking like prose and reading
> like prose. Prose
> is really good at the things that criticism intends.
> And I don't see
> anything in experimental writing whose criticism is
> uncontainable
> within a prose constraint. But, if it were to
> develop along other
> lines then by all means it would tend towards...
>
> > Should criticism be more like call&response in
> form?
>
> a call & response, or a collaboration (maybe a short
> lived one--a
> single ping and a single pong, and that's it). And
> in a way I think it
> could be argued that all art is that way, a
> response, a criticism, to
> somethings else, a collaboration that is continuous
> and takes place
> over the whole of time. But I don't think that's
> what you're meaning,
> exactly, so I should rein myself in here.
>
> I think criticism should help interested readers
> decide if they should
> explore the work being criticized themselves.
> There's too damned much
> brilliant work out there for me to see it all. I
> want a critical
> writing to allow me to leverage the critics time and
> effort and
> education and ability to connect threads into an
> overall efficiency
> savings for me. I don't have to agree with the
> critic, I just need to
> know from reading them, if I have any business with
> the piece(s) being
> written about.
>
> > Is criticism collaboration?
>
> Absolutely. In many cases directly between creator
> and critic (some of
> whom consider themselves Creator), but in any case
> in the larger sense
> of forming a body of information around an idea that
> can be dipped
> into usefully by others.
>
> > Experimental writing doesn't mean there aren't
> differences of opinion or
> > taste after all.
>
> No, it sure doesn't. But of all the writing
> communities I've been
> involved in, the experimental writers I know are the
> most touchy when
> it comes to differences of opinion, in broad general
> terms. There are
> plenty of exceptions on all sides. But dropping a
> well placed
> criticism into the middle of a bunch of experimental
> poets is going to
> cause a lot more psychic disturbance than dropping a
> comparable
> criticism into the middle of any other group that I
> have experience
> with. Critical conversations (see "Godwin's law")
> tend to devolve into
> name calling and pouting and kicking the dirt and
> taking my ball home,
> that's human nature it seems. But in an group of
> experimental writers,
> I think the tendency is even more pronounced. I
> think it has a lot to
> do with risk though, too, and the nature of
> creativity. If a
> traditional poet is taking a risk in showing others
> their works, the
> experimental poet is taking a much larger risk. The
> form could be
> enough to get the content dismissed, and having the
> content of
> something personally created dismissed is extremely
> difficult to
> separate from being personally dismissed. It would
> be like someone
> telling you you were a big fat jerk for driving a
> car that you
> invented to run on unrecycleable trash. The initial
> response is not
> "but what about the car?" it's "I'm a jerk?" And
> every piece of
> creativity inducing information I've ever seen says
> it's essential for
> the full flowing of most creativities to keep the
> critical mind and
> even criticism itself (by the self or others) as far
> away from the
> creating as possible. It kills creativity the way
> explaining a joke
> isn't funny. So you create a space like this where
> people post fresh
> work and post critique too and you have a very
> unstable environment.
>
> Dan
>




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