not much
sig in
jerkin ~
nervy ni join Warm toy
12:16 10/8/06 830 bytes
--- "Dr. T. Michael Roberts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Or make it the absent center of a discursive structure
> that only attains coherence and closure on permission
> that this center, this center which everything refers
> to but which is never presented, is what the discourse
> is structured around or, more simply, what it is
> about. What if masturbation is real sex and other sex
> is real only to the extent that it performs a core
> script iterated endlessly as tropes of masturbatory
> fantasy?
>
> What if the traumatic real being hidden is an absence
> of anything for the script of desire to refer to or be
> about? What if the script itself is a purloined letter
> hidden in plain sight? What if we were afraid to
> touch it is, like zero, a place holder, a necessary
> way of signifying nothing which is necessary to making
> signification possible.
>
>
> --- Alan Sondheim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > For me the discourse is dialectical; masturbation
> > etc. occurs among the
> > primate and a number of other animals. So it's a
> > question of representa-
> > tion. So I would imagine that masturbation would be
> > presenced everywhere -
> > even an absent discourse would indicate a
> > problematic around the act.
> >
> > - Alan
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 8 Oct 2006, Dr. T. Michael Roberts wrote:
> >
> > > Orgy paintings were common on the walls of Roman
> > > villas. Sex was not taken to be as much a private
> > > matter at that time. These painting were displayed
> > in
> > > public areas, not in private bedrooms. Many of the
> > > Minoan Bull-jumping frescos seem to have a
> > sexual
> > > element. Public orgies were as much a part of
> > public
> > > life in Carthage as July 4th parades are in modern
> > > America and were displayed in public art.
> > >
> > > The danger in talking about sexuality is that it
> > is
> > > itself an effect of discourse constructed through
> > a
> > > discourse process marked by the constraints of a
> > > particular cultural time and place and by the
> > > positioning of both narrator and intended audience
> > > within that culture. Plato has Socrates mention a
> > > popular prostitute of the time, Diotima, in the
> > > Symposium. Symposium originally meant drinking
> > party
> > > and prostitutes were routinely hired to entertain
> > at
> > > such gathering. A good source on all of this is
> > > Reading, Writing, and Rewriting the Prostitute
> > Body by
> > > Shannon Bell.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- mpalmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > >> So many things to think about with this topic,
> > but
> > >> one question that
> > >> comes to mind is this: When were the first images
> > to
> > >> appear in art of
> > >> individuals masturbating? Or what about the first
> > >> mention in a
> > >> literary work? I can't think of anything from
> > >> ancient Greece, nor
> > >> from India, etc. but that's just off the top of
> > my
> > >> head. Maybe
> > >> somebody better versed in this stuff than I would
> > >> know.
> > >>
> > >> m
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Oct 7, 2006, at 8:04 PM, Alan Sondheim wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> After the Kali Tal nettime blasting and my
> > >> response, I'm hesitant
> > >>> to send this out. But I'm proud of this work,
> > and
> > >> its association
> > >>> of sexuality, dance, freedom and degradation -
> > >> rendering the
> > >>> reader, at least myself, uncomfortable. And this
> > >> is definitely from
> > >>> a mail viewpoint, or at least a ghostly male
> > >> choreographer's
> > >>> viewpoing? Or is it? There's a whole area of
> > >> performance that's
> > >>> open to question.
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm responding re: below and in some of the
> > other
> > >> dance-texts I've
> > >>> written
> > >>> - to the fundamentally Apollonian / cool nature
> > of
> > >> western dance,
> > >>> where eroticism is buried. Think of gender
> > >> relations in ballet, or
> > >>> the cool efficaceous computerized choreographies
> > >> of Cunningham, or
> > >>> Rainer's slow and steadied presentation. Early
> > >> dance - what a
> > >>> catastrophic term - often involved sexuality re:
> > >> fertility rites,
> > >>> etc. I apologize for the general- ization.
> > Dance,
> > >> in short, often
> > >>> involved caressing, fucking, rapture, frisson,
> > >> that was seemingly
> > >>> real. What I'm writing into is the Dionysian.
> > >>>
> > >>> The difference might be between the aesthetics
> > of
> > >> eroticism and the
> > >>> non- aesthetics of pornography, and here I'm on
> > >> shakier ground, but
> > >>> I'm not talking about a pornography which
> > >> denigrates women or
> > >>> anyone for that matter. Eroticism flourishes in
> > >> the dance, but of
> > >>> course only goes so far - the rest might be left
> > >> up to the strip-
> > >>> club, which serves (if that's the right word) a
> > >> very different
> > >>> purpose. (The ground is falling away.) So these
> > >> are dances which
> > >>> won't be performed but could be - dances which
> > >> would close
> > >>> theaters, ruin reputations. The descriptions are
> > >> obviously the
> > >>> barest outlines; you can fill in the rest
> > >> yourself.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> ====
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> The Lek
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Sex dances for one to four people.
> > >>>
> > >>> The dancers are nude. There are no props.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Male dances alone while masturbating. He dances
> > >> until he cums.
> > >>>
> > >>> Female dances alone while masturbating. She
> > dances
> > >> until she cums.
> > >>>
> > >>> Tethered: Male dances with his prick in a
> > >> partner's mouth. The partner
> > >>> crouches, mostly immobile.
> > >>>
> > >>> Tethered: Female dances prone above a male
> > partner
> > >> with his prick in
> > >>> her cunt. The dance continues until one or both
> > of
> > >> them have cum.
> > >>>
> > >>> Tethered: Female dances prone coupling with a
> > >> female partner. The
> > >>> dance
> > >>> ends as above.
> > >>>
> > >>> Tethered: Male dances prone, coupling with a
> > male
> > >> partner. The dance
> > >>> ends when both have cum.
> > >>>
> > >>> Tethered: Male or female dances with his or her
> > >> mouth on a partner's
> > >>> prick. The dances continues until the dancer or
> > >> partner have cum.
> > >>>
> > >>> Tethered: Male dances with one hand holding his
> > >> prick erect.
> > >>>
> > >>> Tethered: Male dances with his cock in a cunt or
> > >> asshole. The
> > >>> partner is
> > >>> on all fours.
> > >>>
> > >>> Tethered: Female dances with one hand in her
> > cunt.
> > >>>
> > >>> Tethered: Female dances with one or more
> > >> partners' fingers in her
> > >>> cunt.
> > >>>
> > >>> Variant Tethered: Male dances with one or more
> > >> partners' fingers in
> > >>> his
> > >>> asshole. The dance ends when one or both have
> > cum.
> > >>>
> > >>> Variant Tethered: Female dances with one or more
> > >> partners' fingers in
> > >>> her asshole. The dance ends as above.
> > >>>
> > >>> Tethered: Male or female dances with her
> > partner's
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
> In so far as literature turns back on itself and examines parodies or treats
> ironically its own
> signifying procedures, it becomes the most complex account of signification
> we possess. John
> Deely
>
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